Embattled Diebold withdraws from North Carolina
posted Nov 30th 2005 1:10PM
In a classic case of "if we don't play my way I'm taking my toys and going home," electronic voting machine manufacturer Diebold has announced that it will no longer do business in North Carolina because the state refused to grant an exception that would let Diebold keep its source code secret. After more voting machine blunders in 2004 (little things, like how it was discovered that even monkeys can hack Diebold gear), North Carolina passed a law that requires e-voting vendors to place their source codes in escrow as a precaution against future irregularities, meaning that the state is not even asking Diebold to reveal its code publicly. Nonetheless, Diebold claims that because their machines contain some Microsoft software, they don't have to right to release the code. Okay folks, which explanation sounds more reasonable: A. Diebold is willing to lose an entire state's worth of business in order to protect Microsoft or themselves on the off-chance of a successful lawsuit or B. Diebold is petrified that their code is so full of security flaws, and other "issues" that should it ever be scrutinized, the company would most likely go out of business? Now before you answer, remember once again that this is Diebold we're talking about here.
Vastly, overwhelmingly more likely that a combination of trade secrets concerns and licensing issues forced them to withdraw than any conspiratorial moonbattery.
Well, the real issue is why the hell would you use proprietary code in these machines in the first place? This is a VOTING MACHINE. It *has* to be open to public scrutiny. You'd have to be an outright moron to program a voting machine with code that you know to be under corporate copyright.
There are alternatives used in other states that do work with GPL or other open-source code. Diebold just needs to be put out of their misery once and for all, if you ask me. This is our democracy here. If they're stupid enough to use Microsoft code in their machines in the first place, then hide behind it when they don't get their way (not to mention all the "irregularities" we've seen from their machines in the past), then good freakin' riddance.
while i haven't ever had the chance to audit a diebold voting machine... i can at least say that i audit their automatic teller machines on a daily basis (i'm a network security analyst) -- and they're beyond horrible. a monkey could own their atms just as easily i'm sure.
i don't really think a code audit would find pro-red weighting, or improper vote tabulation code... but it would make them look pretty stupid in any event.
My home state has done the right thing. There is nothing so wrong about paper voting in North Carolina that requires the system to be replaced by a dubious electronic system built by a bunch of treacherous scam artists.
Diebold, we don't need you. Sorry!
#2 "i can at least say that i audit their automatic teller machines on a daily basis (i'm a network security analyst) -- and they're beyond horrible. a monkey could own their atms just as easily i'm sure."
please give us more info on how to own their atms... ;) ...you know...for informational purposes only... :-P
#4: there are sooo many ways (like exploiting any windows vuln that has come out in the last several years, for one) -- but when there's no administrator password, or that password is diebold... effort really isn't required.
YAY!!!
Republican bashing finally comes to engadget!!!
I've only been a engdget reader for a couple of months, and while the site owners left-leaning bias has leaked through in some stories, this is the first time it has showed up so blantantly in a news story.
This article has nothing to do with what I felt engadget was about, and I won't be back.
My state finally does something right!
I've been against Diebold ever since learning of their ties with a certain person who holds a certain high office.....*cough* W. *cough*
Go NC!
Hang on, let me put on my libtard tin foil hat...
Yes, it's all a massive conspiracy by Bill Frist and Diebold to illegally get more votes for Republicans!
Moron.
#7 what proof do you have that it isn't? You know Jeb Bush rigged the election to eliminate all persons with SS#s and names SIMILAR to those of felons right?
What is stopping them from hiring a company to rig voting machines?
With all the politcial 'spin' (that means lying) coming out of washington I'd say you are in the minority if you DON'T think something is up.
I'd just like to point out that number 7 doesn't come out as the sharpest tool in the shed here, curtesy of the word 'libtard'... and pretty much every other word he said.
A. Schopenhauer, in 'The art of Controversy', stated ad personem to be the ultimate and most foul rhetorical jab. One used when the subject is so entrenched in his error that, finding no way to justify his own stubbornness, no way to uphold his position or at very least, deny that of another that is in direct contradiction with his own, insults the opposing party as a last resort.
You'll find #7 to be a simple, yet good, example of the above.
Why is it that everything is a Republican conspiracy? That joke is old, proven to be false, and it has set sail. Why don't you trot some Titanic jokes out while you're at it just to keep your repetoire fresh.
Get the hell over it.
#7: No conspiracy needed, Diebold's top man said he'd deliver the election himself.
Any Governor that allows a clearly partisan CEO (i.e. dont worry, I will deliver Ohio, wink, wink, nod, nod) with a flawed, unverifiable product, should not only be voted out, but should be flogged. They are doing their constituents a disservice. There is no reason why a voting machine cant produce a paper tape (for validation/accuracy) and a receipt, PERIOD. After all ATMs do it millions of times a day. DIBOLD MACHINES ARE A THREAT TO OUR DEMOCRACY!
Stay educated people (http://www.blackboxvoting.org/).
#8 - It's difficult to prove a negative. But how about this - party voting patterns are extremely similar to how they were before the machines were put in.
Unlike in my state (WI), where the election was extremely close and we've got 1200 confirmed votes in heavily Democratic districts coming from people registered at non-existant addresses? And the party is fighting against asking for ID at voter registration and to vote because it will "disenfranchise" people (as if allowing voter cheats to keep going doesn't do the same).
I'm sure there's cheating on both sides, but the party of the Voting Dead shouldn't be throwing stones here.
What it must be like to wake up every morning looking for someone to blame yor troubles on! Diebold didn't elect anybody people. And Jeb Bush didn't steal the election for his brother. Whilst you guys stew about elections past, you keep losing elections present.
We're labeled conspiracy theorists if we think Diebold stole Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004, but the facts and the rumors are both on our sides. The radical right has so amplified its voice and its ridiculous screams of "bias" that MSM won't touch the major vote tampering of 2004. Without them, the story is allowed to die.
Congratulations North Carolina. Elections should be pure and transparent. It is your government's mistrust of you that they aren't.
It amazes me that some of the smartest people out there (ie - gadget geeks) still purchase a ticket on the crazy train when it comes to politics.
It also amazes me how quickly a site like engadget is willing to insult a good chunk of its readers with such a broad, and frankly ridiculous, remark.
On electon day, in 2004, poll normaly reporting 80% democrat voting turn out 80% rep.
I heard that the central processing was done with a simple x86 computer, that could have been easilly compromised.
The code SHOULD definitely be open and Diebold is stupid to think it should NOT be that way. IN any event, other companies will step up and take thier place of that I am certain. With anything like voting, even with a supposed 3rd party like Diebold taking care of the machines, there's still a chance that there would be bias in the developer/vendor level that could cause "irregularities" to happen. Personally, we ned something devloped that is:
1. Open to public inspection.
2. I am afraid to say, but DRM methods similar to the XBOX 360 is probably needed in something like this.
3. It would have to be more detailed, but there should definitely be some encryption of the voting file and it should only be decrypted by election officials and it should have at least 2 keys. 1 password held by a each party. Only when all passwords are inputted at the same time or in the correct order should the file be decrypted.
4. Voters should have a paper reciept and there should also be a secured hard copy of the voting record that again is secured by physical keys. Only time this paper record should be used is in case of an tampering is detected with the electronic file or if the electronic file is corrupted. You can make the paper record machine readable as well to reduce count time and to reduce tampering.
Interesting. I saw a report where they charted all of the voting irregularities from Election 2004. The Diebold machines produced the greatest errors by far, and almost all of those errored in favor of Bush.
I'm sorry, but that simply does not happen naturally.
sure, they aren't able to release the windows source code.
what people are forgetting here is, the voting system isn't, like, embedded into the operating system. it's software that runs on windows -- very simple, shitty software. i see no reason why they can't release the code. the argument of having to release the windows source holds no water at all.
You guys need to get your facts straight. Diebold isn't scoffing necessarily at releasing THEIR code, the problem is their machines run on Windows. They cannot legally or logistically release the Windows source code and the names of everyone who worked on it (as per the law). There are certain portions of their code apparently that would reveal MS code that they're under NDA for.
Diebold may still be crooked, but get your facts right.
#19: "There are certain portions of their code apparently that would reveal MS code that they're under NDA for."
this is according to who? oh yeah, according to diebold.
tell me how a touchscreen system that sends user input over serial requires access to the os source. tell me.
#14:
We're labeled conspiracy theorists if we think Diebold stole Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004, but the facts and the rumors are both on our sides.
Other than the fact that no Diebold electronic machines were used in Ohio? ZERO?!? THOSE facts?
The chairman of the Franklin County Board of Elections diagrees with your assessment. I don't know if it helps you that he's also the chairman of the Franklin County Democratic Party. THOSE facts?!?
One last fact for you, courtesy of the American Center for Voting Rights:
"While Democrats routinely accuse Republicans of voter intimidation and suppression, neither party has a clean record on the issue. Instead, the evidence shows that Democrats waged aggressive intimidation and suppression campaigns against Republican voters and volunteers in 2004. Republicans have not been exempt from similar criticism in this area, as alleged voter intimidation and suppression activity by GOP operatives led the Republican National Committee to sign a consent decree repudiating such tactics in 1982. However, a careful review of the facts shows that in 2004, paid Democrat operatives were far more involved in voter intimidation and suppression efforts than their Republican counterparts."
Having said that, there is no reason that an open-source voting machine which produces a hard copy for optical scan recount, and a paper copy for the voter, cannot be done. And frankly, I don't understand why somebody doesn't get on that. That would be a million-dollar proposition right there, and likely put these other yahoos out of business.
I would just like to point out to #9 that he may want to learn how to spell the word "courtesy" before he starts calling other people stupid.
I mean just as a general rule, I like to ensure that I'm not looking like a moron whilst calling someone else a moron.
Well, to be fair, Diebold was in a bit of tough situation here. They were never told to what standards they should be held and they were relying on code from another company to which they don't have the rights (Microsoft Windows, in the case, as I understand it).
That being said, Diebold should have known better and absolutely never have used Windows as the basis for these machines. Why wouldn't they use an open-source (and likely cheaper) alternative? They set themselves up for failure and North Carolina absolutely did the right thing. As for Republicans versus Democrats in this issue, party politics have absolutely nothing to do with it. Nobody wants their vote potentially lost. We need machines that are open to scrutiny and review as well as a system to ensure that our votes are counted (other than those cutesy "I Voted" stickers).
Here, here #12 and 17. I once watched a program on the old Tech TV (now G4 TV), in which they demonstrated many flaws in electronic voting machines. One such demo showed how rigged machines incremented vote counts for the favored candidate. Another incident involved a district in Maryland in which the electronic voting machines recorded 2/3 more votes than was actually cast. I dont care what party you are affiliated with, you have to be a DUMBASS if this doesnt bother you!! It goes against everything that the Constitution and America stands for!!
I second this, Stay educated people (http://www.blackboxvoting.org/)
PS "I don't understand why somebody doesn't get on that." Simple answer #23. They (whoever "THEY" are) want to STEAL. There is MONEY and POWER at stake. To quote a famous Eastern European Despot, It doesnt matter who votes, only who counts the votes". I wouldnt have dreamed this would happen in my Country!!
gorkon: "2. I am afraid to say, but DRM methods similar to the XBOX 360 is probably needed in something like this."
Digital Rights Management? I don't think my vote counts as a creative work which has some copyright's attached. That is unless I vote Libertarian :) Maybe you mean Trusted Computing, instead.
Our representatives aren't paying attention to this because the tech nerds like us aren't screaming at them loud enough. I lit a fire under John Kerry about it over here in MA, I suggest you do the same in your state.
No paper receipt, NO VOTING MACHINE!
Want facts?
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0511/S00340.htm
or http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_267.shtml
Just 2 of many articles. You have to admit its odd when the errors and irregularities are in favor of the Republican party.
#27: PS "I don't understand why somebody doesn't get on that." Simple answer #23. They (whoever "THEY" are) want to STEAL. There is MONEY and POWER at stake.
I was referring to some random joe linux programmer who might have the know-how to code something like this. It seems like easy money to me. As I have learned over the last few hours, there are already a couple of open source projects underway, so this day may not be far off.
#29 - I repeat, ZERO Diebold machines were deployed in Ohio in 2004. THE OHIO DEMOCRATIC PARTY SAYS SO.
Source code for voting machines should NEVER EVER be confidential. Im not the biggest fan of open source but when you are dealing with code that can determine the fate of an election. GOD DAMN IT, IT SHOULD BE STATE AUDITED! Diebold is a sleaze bag of a company. Which nache explains why they are, or at least their president is, a major Bush supporter. I quote the owner of the company in a fundraising letter: "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."
But why let a little comment like that get in the way of "progress"
http://ohiodems.org/index.php?display=ReleaseDetails&id=191201" - Ohio Democratic Party
I live in Chicago, We dont need voting machines to rig elections. We do it the old fashioned way. And Always remember kids,
Dead Presidents Always Vote Democratic!
The reason no-one has yet designed a paper-trail system has nothing to do with money or rigging elections. It's all about logistics.
Every state has its own standards and requirements for certification of voting equipment. In some states the standards even vary by county. Now imagine trying to design and code a machine that covers enough states to make the manufacturing process cheap enough to deliver a profit, when it might need to have up to 100 localized variations in operation and/or physical design.
That's why there are so few companies in the ballotting business, and why the major players often do election gear as a sideline.
"Why is it that everything is a Republican conspiracy? "
Maybe because the fact that deep down the most ultra right Wing psychopaths out there have more in common with fascists then anything else and as such have NO problems trying to flaunt their power.
Apparently a tinfoil-hat conspiracy is easier to swallow than the fact that you lost. Twice.
I agree entirely with #7, Engadget just lowered its standard substantially.
Not to mention your article doesn't make any logical sense, it has nothing to do with which 'sounds more likely', it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to comply, as the law requires the source of the operating system as well as names of all developers that worked on it. How exactly would diebold provide the source and list of developers for Windows?
Perhaps it was stupid to use windows in the first place, but this doesn't change the fact that it is currently not possible to comply.
I can tell you for sure that Diebold does NOT have an open NDA that would allow them to put MS code in escrow... period. Also, Diebold doesn't likely HAVE MS source to begin with. They have ATM's in North America, Europe and Africa that run XP variants that they add their proprietary ATM apps/code to for functionality. This is not a Diebold or MS conspiracy gang... it is simply a matter of laws and the NC lawmakers not understanding the software business at all. Does Diebold have to provide the BIOS vendors source as well? It simply doesn't make good business sense to trust a state entity to hold 25+ million lines of Windows code because a chimp previously hacked their poorly devised and implemented security access controls. One thing does not affect the other. I've installed and managed DoD systems all over the world running MS OS's in Top Secret environments certified by the NSA, but it isn't secure enough for the state of NC? Please... this is a simple case of blaming the OS platform for application developement/implementation vulnerabilities. That is like saying I installed an Nvidia/ATI driver and a new game that BSOD'd my desktop therefore MS sux... understand what you are talking about before you shout it from the mountain tops...
:-)
What's the problem with "taking my toys and going home"? This seems to be a popular phrase to throw around these days.
If I'm playing ball with my friends and I don't like how they're treating me or that they keep picking me last... guess what? F*ck them! I'm leaving!
Am I expected to stay there with my ball so that everyone can play even if I don't like the way things are going? That's retarded!
(no. 7) bash away baby, bash away.
amazed this is coming from my state.
Diebold is controlled by Republicans. If that isn't a conflict of interest, then the concept is meaningless. They don't want their right-wing leaning software scrutinized. Occasionally Diebold allows Democrats to win races, but for the most part Diebold elects Republicans.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/archives/cat_vote_fraud.html
"Occasionally Diebold allows Democrats to win races, but for the most part Diebold elects Republicans."
How old are you?? You have the logic of a toddler.
Computers don't throw elections, misinformed, ignorant people do. When will people realize that there is no "bulletproof" method of electing government officials?
I challenge someone out there to develop a voting machine with a totally open source program for voting, and go into competition against Diebold. If you people are so adament that Diebold is a horrible company with a terrible product, then it should be very easy for someone out there to develop a simple, friendly, easy to maintain digital voting for the masses.
So.... Quit your complaining and get to work. Use your brain power for something productive, instead of complaining!
Let me get this straight, the Endgadget posting presents the situation in N.C., offers two options 1) That Diebold has a contract/IP issue or 2) Have written such bad code that their idiocy in losing votes and producing hackable machines would be totally exposed and they don't want this to happen.
In response, every right winger takes utter offense to these comments and says Engadget is lowering its standards with left wing attacks and/or says they won't be back.
Diebold shouldn't be allowed into any voting booth without openly examined software. WTF it's not even an issue anymore! To feign offense and cry bias... spare me your fn tears. Both of these ideas put forward by Engadget are likely operative to some degree. This black and white world you live in is a fantasy.
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." -- Russian Dictator Joseph Stalin
Worryingly, I noticed that the new ATMS in my local HSBC bank are now Diebold. And I'm in the UK.