Questionable report claims Hummer is greener than Prius

You won't have to look too hard in order to find a report or two claiming that hybrid vehicles aren't as miraculous as they are oftentimes portrayed, but when a recent article declared that Toyota's flagship hybrid was more taxing on the environment than a Hummer, you've got to wonder what's going on. Incredibly, the questionable findings from CNW Marketing stated that GM's gas guzzler only cost about $1.95 per mile to put on the road, while the Prius rang up $3.25 per mile in order to hit the pavement. Reportedly, these zany numbers include all production costs -- which supposedly run around 50-percent higher on the hybrid -- but the story started to smell fishy when we found that the per-mile statistics were based on a 100,000-mile Prius and a 300,000-mile Hummer, which seems to be a stretch in both directions. Currently, there seems to be a huge amount of skepticism surrounding the bold figures, and until the testers place both vehicles on a level playing field from the start, we doubt those discrepancies will fade anytime soon.

[Via Slashdot]

[Colin @ Mar 24th 2007 8:18AM]

Sort of believable...even after the Hummer stops working you can live in it instead of purchasing a trailer...Dust to Dust cost would be significantly better than having a Prius AND a house.


;)

[Rich @ Mar 24th 2007 8:53AM]

The 100k vs 300k mileage comes about because that's how long a Hummer (which is made of pig-iron girders and concrete) will last in comparison to a Pious (which is made from plastic and exploding Sony batteries). It's like expecting your laptop to last as long as a 1940's mechanical typewriter. So, the laptop is more clever, but it ain't going to cut it in terms of longevity.

Personally, I hate both cars...

[Blake @ Mar 24th 2007 9:57AM]

You know the Hummer is built on the frame of a Chevy Suburban, Right?

Not exactly pig iron and concrete, plus, its a GM vehicle.

[Jordan @ Mar 24th 2007 10:51AM]

Also, the Prius battery is made by Fuji Heavy Industries (the parent company of Subaru and many other companies in Japan). It is not even a Lithium battery like the ones recently exploding, it's NiMH.

Take this the best way you can, but you are an uninformed troll.

[gren @ Mar 24th 2007 9:10AM]

While I think there are likely problems with this report--it is important that we start looking at overall energy consumption. If compact fluorescent light bulbs save 100 units of energy over their lifetime in the house but cost 200 more units in the more complex production complex then they save nothing. Now, that's likely not the case but it's something the consumers and businesses alike need to know.

[Revrant2394 @ Mar 24th 2007 9:14AM]

Huh, why am I getting that weird deja vu Christian Science and Global Warming skew here? Anyone? Just me? Just me.

[John Doe @ Mar 24th 2007 9:44AM]

Bullshit.

[Thaylin @ Mar 24th 2007 9:47AM]

I agree with Rich & Gren. What happens to the Prius in 6 years when you have to replace the batteries because they won't hold a charge. Do they go into landfill? How much will they cost to replace? What effective cost do all these batteries have on the environment, in terms of production, disposal,and chemicals leeching into the ground. The Toyota Prius is looking less environmentally friendly the more you look at it. That being said.... My support is for any alternative power source that would remove our dependence on fossil fuels and the oil companies. My only reservation is the supply line for these alternatives. Will government and oil barrons control and sell Methane, Electricity, Air, Water or any other proposed energy sources? Something to consider.

[Dave Belfer-Shevett @ Mar 24th 2007 9:49AM]

Wait, I'm puzzled - and the article didn't really link appropriately - is it saying that "overall costs are computed based on a 100,000 vs 300,000 mile lifetime" - so if a prius costs $100k to manufacturer, that's a buck a mile, but if a hummer costs $100k to make, that's $0.33 a mile?

That's total crap, because I guarantee that hummer will require maintenance over and over again over that 300k lifetime. Detroit hasn't built a car that can last that long in decades.

On the other hand, the prius has a helluva lot longer lifetime than 100k. Mine in particular is pushing 50k now, and has zero issues, and I know of at least 3 others that are well past the 150k miles count. I know of NONE that have died at 100k miles.

I smell BS.

---
http://planet-geek.com/

[JWRIGHT @ Mar 24th 2007 2:26PM]

Good thing the H2 is made right here in Mishawaka, IN.

[Jim @ Mar 24th 2007 9:51AM]

Sad but true even backed up by a short articale from the Economist:

The dirty little secret about hybrids is that their batteries and extensive use of aluminium parts make them costly to build in energy terms as well as financial terms. One life-cycle assessment claims that, from factory floor to scrap heap, a Prius consumes more energy even than a Hummer III. Diesels are unlikely to consume anything like as much over their lifetime. That could change, of course, if some bright spark decides to replace a hybrid's petrol engine with a diesel--to launch a family car capable of 100mpg. Now there's a thought.

Read the copy below (Taken via the link http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188 :
March 7, 2007
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

[Bloobie @ Mar 24th 2007 1:06PM]

You seem to be contradicting yourself in one area, however. You state that "the largest percent of gas is consumed" when the Prius is being brought from a dead stop to 30mph. You then go on to say that north of 30mph, the gasoline engine takes over. From my understanding, the Hybrid Synergy Drive is electric-only at start and at low speeds, as electricity is more efficient at low speeds, whereas gasoline is much more efficient at high speeds.

[Sam Abuelsamid @ Mar 24th 2007 9:52AM]

The initial report that triggered this whole thing last fall was quickly debunked as fatally flawed and inaccurate. The writer from Central Connecticut State then takes this inaccurate data and even more untruths to it. The information about the nickel smelting facility in Sudbury is about two decades out of date.

Yes it does cost more to produce a hybrid than a conventional car. Yes the benefit of a hybrid is not as big as some of the mileage numbers would lead you to believe. However, the efficiency of a Prius or even any conventional compact is so much greater than any Hummer including the "small" H3 which can't even manage 20mpg on the highway, that the argument is ridiculous.
You can check out two rebuttals here http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/10/05/oh-so-a-hummer-is-not-greener-a-prius/ and here http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/03/08/hummer-vs-prius-redux-this-time-to-hummer-i-dont-think-so/.

[Colin @ Mar 24th 2007 9:56AM]

Jim...

It isn't 'backed up by the Economist' since the Economist is quoting the same study...

Anyway...I'd much rather get a small diesel car than a hybrid...I too worry about all the batteries.

Same thing for CFL bulbs...I'll continue to use incandescent until LED lighting comes along and not have to worry about all that mercury (from CFLs) getting into the landfills/water supply.

[Jordan @ Mar 24th 2007 11:11AM]

"Same thing for CFL bulbs...I'll continue to use incandescent until LED lighting comes along and not have to worry about all that mercury (from CFLs) getting into the landfills/water supply."

There are now "green" CFLs with no mercury, I believe they are made by Feit Electric, but either way I saw them at Wal-mart and they have no mercury.

[LE @ Mar 24th 2007 11:41AM]

It was first made on a suburban frame it is no longer made on a suburban frame. It is exactly like the military version except for the finishing production that puts in civilian items like seatbelts and key ignition.

[Colin @ Mar 24th 2007 10:12AM]

@Blake...

I think we are talking Hummer not H2 or H3.

The Hummer H1 is basically a HMMWV built for civilian use; it has no armor or weapons fittings. However, the drive-train, frame, body, suspension, etc., are exactly the same. (Wiki)

I don't think that is a Chevy Suburban frame.

[Blake @ Mar 24th 2007 12:10PM]

Ahh, the picture threw me off, but i've worked on HMMWV and the drivetrain is nothing like a H2.

[Brian @ Mar 24th 2007 1:49PM]

The H2 is built on a suburban frame. The H1 is built on a Yukon frame. I am not sure what stating it is a GM is for. Although GM is a detroit company hummers are built in Indiana.

[Rob @ Mar 24th 2007 10:26AM]

I am so pissed that someone copied and pasted the horribly erroneous "opinion" piece written by a student and called it an article. There's a blog where he admits he threw it together in 30 minutes. This student-written article was a regurgitation of a couple of erroneous articles published in the past year. You can rest assured this article is full of crap for the following reasons:

QUOTE: "The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid."

This means someone who drives 20,000 miles per year for five years would pay $56K each year in total car expenses ($325K in five years), which is obviously incorrect. This gives you a sense at how non-factual the entire article is.

The article also bases its conclusions on the foundation that a Hummer's life-span is 300,000 miles, while a that of a Prius is only 100,000 miles. There is no basis for either of these lifetime estimates. It's been shown there are plenty of Prius Taxis that have exceeded that number (with original batteries). Also, Hummers are some of Consumer Reports worst rated cars based on "reliability history," while the Prius are among the highest rated. So which car do we really expect to drive longer?

QUOTE: “The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

This quote was talking about conditions before 1972! It's basically a hoax to attribute this quote to anything related to the nickel used by Toyota. Furthermore, I found out: Since 1972, Inco has reduced its sulfur dioxide emissions by more than 90 percent (as have the other mining companies in the area); and Inco and Sudburians have between them planted more than 11 million trees on more than 14,000 hectares.

Toyota uses less than 1% of the output of the Inco plant referenced in the article. Not to mention that about 90 percent of all new nickel sold each year goes into alloys, two-thirds going into stainless steel...

IN REGARDS TO CNW:
The CNW numbers are so far divorced from reality, so many orders of magnitude wrong, that you lend them credence by treating them as if there were any substance there.

If everyone in America drove a Toyota Corolla, which is a pretty efficient little car as straight-gas cars go, then, based on the CNW "energy cost per mile", the total "energy cost" of our driving would amount to about two-thirds of the entire US gross domestic product. Alternatively, if we take the CNW numbers at face value, the total "energy cost" of our driving would be over 20 times the value of total US fossil fuel consumption, for all reasons.

So, the CNW numbers are total nonsense.

Basically, CNW says that every year, US cars consume 20x more fossil fuel energy than the US actually consumes, in total, for all reasons. It doesn't matter how they got those numbers. The results show that they are total, illogical, impossible, unmitigated horsesh*t, and they should be treated as such.

[Goebbels @ Mar 24th 2007 10:28AM]

I'm with Colin,

I drive a high eficient diesel and I get over 1000km a tank. It's fast, a load of torque, reliable and fun to drive.

I will never drive a gasser ever again! No line up the pumps and you can go several weeks and upto a month without refilling depending how much you drive.

It's the best kept secret that the gas companies don't want you to know about. All people know about is the shite GM produced in the 80's that blew black smoke and broke down all the time. Ok so I went off topic a bit.

[Rob @ Mar 24th 2007 10:39AM]

"This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs."

Wait, the government's website www.fueleconomy.gov says the Prius gets 55mpg (combined) and the manual tranny Aveo gets 30mpg (combined). If these numbers aren't accurate, I'm sure the are inaccurate for both cars by similar amounts. Thus the article is straight out lying when it asserts the Aveo is close to the Prius in fuel economy. One of many errors in the article.

[Peter @ Mar 24th 2007 10:51AM]

Absolute BS hoax piece. As mentioned, at $3.25/mile it would cost $325 000 to run it over 5 to 10 years. Plain silly. As far as the claim about 100k life. Absolute nonsense:

http://autos.canada.com/news/story.html?id=7385385b-732d-4ac6-8513-8289842450df
" His current Prius recently surpassed 400,000 kilometres with no hybrid component failures."

That is 250 000 miles BTW. Now find the hummer that has gone 250 000 miles and compare real $/mile.

Oh and for the idiot mentioning exploding Sony batteries. Prius uses Nimh, they don't explode.

This article is complete BS.

[Rich @ Mar 24th 2007 11:37AM]

Blimey, you take things a bit seriously, don't you?

I know Americans are short on irony. But humour in general?

[Jordan @ Mar 24th 2007 12:01PM]

I just couldn't tell if that was misinformation, or disinformation. Hopefully it was misinformation, or purely humor.

It's sad that you could tell that I am American buy my bad attitude.. ;)

I guess I took it more seriously, because I live in the industrial smog-infested US where everyone drives SUVs.. If I moved to where you're at, I might take humor more lightly because I could laugh without coughing.. ;)

[Jordan @ Mar 24th 2007 11:00AM]

My previous post was a response to Rich's post way up at the top.

Anyway, as a Prius owner who drives one every day, I can personally tell you that this is ridiculous. You can take the solace that the car being green is merely a bonus for me, I bought the car because it saves me a FORTUNE, and it does. Even if it turns out that it isn't any greener than any other car, it still reduced my personal dependence on foreign oil, which would be great if we all could.

The car has a 100k mile hybrid warranty, Toyota estimates the battery at 150k miles, and I have never even heard of one failing that soon. There is a NYC taxi cab driver I read about with 300k city miles on it who's never had a hybrid failure. These things are bulletproof. I personally can think of 5 people that I know with H3s and one with an H2. Every one has sucked. To be fair, the H2 has been a LITTLE better, but it's just a fancy Suburban and the H3 is just a fancy Colorado (of which both spin rods in the engine).

I live near Flint, MI, which as some of you may know is basically the birthing town of Buick and most of the rest of GM. All of our roads are named after the founders of GM because THEY LIVED ON THEM. EVERY SINGLE PERSON I know drives a GM car. I am hardly exaggerating. At least 95%.

I will tell you this, a Prius is cheaper to own, period. All of my friends' cars are constantly in the shop. How rediculous.

Don't believe me?

But a Prius for $23k, take the $1800 tax credit, drive it for 30k miles and sell it for $16k. That's the market value. If you do that same thing with an H2, you are going to lose $10,000 AND pay three times as much for your monthly fuel expenses.

[Frankenstein Black @ Mar 24th 2007 11:30AM]

They are both resource PIGS! Its all about the Tesla!!
http://www.teslamotors.com/
(as he saves his penny's for the ENERGY POSITIVE solar edition). Worth repeating, a solar powered electric sports car that's ENERGY POSITIVE, with good looks and great performance to boot ;^)...

[flink @ Mar 24th 2007 11:36AM]

Buy a high mileage non-hybrid Toyota or Honda or a new Diesel VW.
Same or better gas mileage and none of the high polluting sludge of the batteries, plus let´s not forget all that CO2 pollution made by the powerplant to make the electricity to charge them.

[Jordan @ Mar 24th 2007 12:03PM]

flink: "plus let´s not forget all that CO2 pollution made by the powerplant to make the electricity to charge them."

???

This is the junk that drives me nuts. A powerplant doesn't charge a Prius.

Sigh.

[Robert @ Mar 24th 2007 11:47AM]

Life cycle analysis is the only way to truly measure the impact and energy cost of a product, but this one smells like a rotting skunk.

Current hybrids are equivalent to E85, over hyped on their real benefit. As corn based ethanol will help lead to cellulosic ethanol, the Prius will lead to the Chevy Volt and other plug-ins and better batteries. It's shows a persons true bias when they bash a Prius for ONLY getting 40mpg. A much better reason to bash it is it handles like a shopping cart.

Don't deride the Suburban driver who consistently fills seven seats. Don't buy a Hummer because you have 10 ft. of gravel driveway. Don't think you're saving the world with a Prius and then move so you have an 80 mile commute. Do make sure your tires are properly inflated.

[August @ Mar 25th 2007 12:45PM]

I'm sorry, but if you really hate living in the "industrial smog-infested US", especially when addressing a guy who lives (and also has an extremely poor grasp on American humor - there's no "u" in the spelling) in the country that is largely responsible for the industrial revolution, you can feel free to leave.

Have you ever been to Colorado, Wyoming, or even Oklahoma, where I'm from? I can't really say these places are "smog-infested".

The old adage "love it or leave it" is as appropriate here as it is anywhere.

[Jordan @ Mar 24th 2007 12:07PM]

LE: "It was first made on a suburban frame it is no longer made on a suburban frame. It is exactly like the military version except for the finishing production that puts in civilian items like seatbelts and key ignition."

I am convinced that everyone in this thread is completely clueless.

The H1 was NEVER made on a "Suburban frame" as you call it (the GMT 800 platform). It is simply a civilian M998 HMMWV.

The H2 IS made on that platform, and has been.

The H3 is made on the small truck platform that the Colorado is made on (GMT345).

[LTM @ Mar 24th 2007 12:17PM]

This CNW report brought to you by the oil industry and automobile manufacturers of America..............It's pure and utter drivel. Do you homework instead of buying into this. It's an insult to intelligence.

[Tristan @ Mar 24th 2007 12:56PM]

Land Rover FTW!

:P

[walk2k @ Mar 24th 2007 1:11PM]

HUH?

Since when does higher cost == less "green"??

Often times "greener" technologies ARE more expensive than their dirty, wasteful counterparts. That should not be a surprise to anyone.

So what? That doesn't mean we shouldn't start switching over to those technologies now, and find ways to reduce the cost - and often those two are the same thing, as mass-production and economy of scale kicks in.

[dub @ Mar 24th 2007 1:58PM]

Wow, people, if you want to bash Hummers, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!!!

The now discontinued H1 is its own unique platform. The civilian model is the same platform as the military "humvee". IT IS NOT A GM PLATFORM.

The H2 uses a modified Suburban chassis. The H2 frame is actually unique to the H2 (ie: it's not a straight Suburban frame), but it uses about 2/3 the same components as the 'Burban frame.

The H3 uses a modified Colorado chassis.

[sheik124 @ Mar 24th 2007 2:01PM]

To all the people claiming "OMG HOAX11!!!1!", that $3.25 per mile cost listed for the Prius IS NOT what it'll cost you in gas/maintenance. If you had actually read the article, they calculated $3.25/mile including the cost of producing the car, etc, (the CNW study was called Dust to Dust, presumably meaning from the moment any manufacturing related to the car begins until it's useless "dust").

Granted, it still reeks of BS, but read up before you wag your fingers.

[Chris Taylor @ Mar 24th 2007 2:04PM]

First those cost estimates are OVERALL COSTS to the manufacturer end user and environment. NOT end user cost.

No I do not think the report is accurate but as wit most crap it IS based on a grain of truth. NYC cab drivers do not count as they put so many miles on there cars SO quickly that the stats are meaningless to the average user.

Resale value ? only a moron would buy a use hybrid. Sorry but once that battery goes its a paperweight environmentally. I would NEVER buy a used hybrid unless I was buying one for parts since I have NO idea how that battery was treated before it got to me.

The high resale value is a bubble that WILL burst when people smarten up

a hybrid is about the worst thing for the environment AS CURRENTLY designed as the average person will NEVER recoup the extra cost of the hybrid in fuel savings. Double the size of the battery pack and enable a plug in EV only mode THEN we might have something to talk about. What I want and what the environment needs is an ELECTRIC CAR with a petrol backup NOT a petrol car with a E drive to take up some acceleration slack.

even the rare 50mpg+ from hard core users of prius owners is pathetic when you consider that a early 80's diesel can get BETTER than this. I have see old diesel rabbits and golf's get 55+ mph 45=50mpg being perfectly common.

These cars also last 300-800 thousand miles properly cared for !!

300k for a hummer is child play. that engine should easily go half a million miles before its first overhaul if its not abused and properly cared for. The Straight 6 in my 88 cherokee has 450,000 miles on it and the damned thing still runs (ZERO engine work from when I got it at 92,000 miles) The only reason it leaks a quart of oil a day is becasuse I abused it (1.5quarts of mudd in the crank when I drowned it 4wheeling but since it never stalled I was not aware that this happened drove like that for 7 more hours trashed every bushing bearing and seal in the engine but the damned thing won't die :-) and I get 22mpg EASILY with proper driving.)

We have had the technology to ELIMINATE gasoline powered cars for 95% of the population for well over 10 years now. They buried it ON purpose and intentionally. (just look up the GM EV1) the EV1 was READY for 95% of us over 10 years ago just image what it could do with TODAYS technology if it was already practical and finished in 1995.

ITs amazing how much of an auto companies income comes from AFTER the sale (parts repairs etc..) the EV1 was SO incredibly maintenance free and SO effecient that it scared the shit out of them so they CRUSHED every one of them. REFUSING to sell even a single one. (they were all leased)

my 30 year old Mercedes 300D gets 28mpg (the aveo gets 25mpg I know I drove it for a week 80 miles a day it was a rock solid never wavered 25mpg and I drive like a granny)

My 300D looks great drives great and cost me $1200 and has required not a single repair in the 40,000 miles I have so far put on it. I got a second one for $400 so I have an entire cars worth of spare parts.

When I am done with it I should be able to eek out 30mpg

all that and not a battery in sight (drive battery)

your telling me that 30+ years later and millions of dollars in research for $23,000 the best they can give me is 45mpg (which I would never see since I driver 54 miles to work with only maybe 7 decelerations) remember NO plug in you have to regen or run the engine to juice the battery so its advantageous in stop and go and gives you near nothing long haul)

I think some have reported highway duration driving nets around 35-40mpg with a prius. (real world not reported)

SO your telling me its better for the environment for me to spend an extra $22,000 for 5mpg 10mpg if I am lucky ?? your nuts right ?

for $24,000 I can get a VW Jetta TDI - no batteries no hybrid drive 52mpg at 75mph with the air on. (real world tested results)

if I could afford a prius its the LAST car I would buy if saving money and saving the environment were my primary concerns. and that jetta should last 500-800 thousand miles if properly taken care of.

I don't care WHAT those NYC cabbies are getting even they are not likely to ever get 500-600k out of those cars.

So what does this tell you. that a super high tech expensive hybrid can NOT get even EQUAL economy to a diesel car NEW or 20years old.

What does that tell you? the prius is designed to make it LOOK like they are doing something for the environment when in fact they are doing NOTHING and are probably making it worse.

Then you have the poor saps who buy them and actually think there doing good?? Pitiful.

any hybrid that gets less than 100mpg during a 100mile trip highway or city is WORTHLESS and it better be able to go for at least 250,000 miles.

What we need is the EV1. 100% electric. 6 times as efficient as the most efficient fuel powered car and will last nearly forever AND with a cheap battery pack (back in 1995 the replacement cost for the pack in the EV1 was $4500 and that was TEN+ FREAKING years ago. Less than the cost of an engine in a petrol car. 200mile range is good enough for 95% of all travel in this country.

While this kind of car would save you and I a ton of money (would save me 2 GRAND a year in fuel alone) and while it would DRAMATICALLY reduce pollution and landfill issues it would LOSE money for the manufacturers well not lose make LESS than they are now they would still profit just not as much.

Makes me sick. and we are giddy about a pathetic 45mpg waste of money hybrid ??

[Chris Taylor @ Mar 24th 2007 2:10PM]

"powerplant to make the electricity to charge them."

But don't forget the powerplants have a lot of surplus meaning they are MAKING the power whether we use it or not (thats why in some areas they give you a cheaper rate to move some of your usage at night)

Second a powerplant is FAR more effecient (about 6 times more effecient) than your gasoline engine.

third with electric NO power is wasted (and some recovered) when you decelerate and stop or remain stopped)

even if 100% of car power was shifted to dino plants it would be FAR FAR better for the environment AND for our bank accounts (hence why we do NOT have them)

then you add in the effeciency AND that many areas do NOT use dino fuel in there power plants AND that now for some and more and more you can begin to generate your OWN power for your car especially if and when ultra capacitors come to reality. A small wind turbine or a modest solar array could easily generate all the power you need to run your car making your environmental footprint ZERO once you purchase the cars and power source.

[fiddle245 @ Mar 24th 2007 2:21PM]

Engadget better start having some standards to what they post. Have you seen this fake company's website?

http://www.cnwmr.com/

Whats next is engadged going to talk the opinions of holocaust deniers seriously?

[Peter @ Mar 24th 2007 2:22PM]

Come on morons. Toyota isn't losing $300 000 on each Prius. They make money. Clearly this is BS. It is a hoax hybrid slam piece. Anyone who buys into this needs their head examined.

People like Chris(Hybrid Slammers) keep quoting BS made up stats like Diesels getting better mileage than Hybrids. Yet in real world testing Hybrids clearly beat Diesels. Using cheaper regular gas.

Check Edmunds long term tests. Edmunds drive their cars hard so there is no more real world test than their long term tests. Both Hybrid and Diesel are good choices.
Final Odometer Reading: 32,406
Best Fuel Economy: 48 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 21.5 mpg
Average Fuel Economy: 36.5 mpg

Current Odometer: 40,687
Best Fuel Economy: 50.1 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 33 mpg
Average Fuel Economy (over the life of the vehicle): 41.4 mpg

[Nogami @ Mar 24th 2007 2:24PM]

Lol, I'm surprised anyone even gives this "report" any credibility whatsoever. Might as well just say that Toyota uses whale oil for lubrication, and kills baby harp seals for the upholstery.

The more outlandish the claim, the more likely that the media will publish it just to get viewers.

Kind of sad, really...

[Paul @ Mar 24th 2007 3:48PM]

SIMPLE MATH

100k miles x 3.25/mi

They are saying it costs $325,000 for a prius that drives 100k miles?
Not possible..

[Chris Taylor @ Mar 24th 2007 5:48PM]

No they say the COST to the planet when all factors are considered. NOT the cost DIRECTLY to toyota or to the buyer. we trade off lower price by dishing some of the cost off on the planet. THAT is why greener is more expensive. WE absorb more of the direct cost so the planet does not have to (you get the idea)

YES the report is bunk (someone mentioned ME they just said chris so until clarified I will assume they were talking to me)

I slam hybrids because they are complete garbage. I CAN ALREADY GET better ECONOMY with a NON HYBRID CAR and have been able to do so for over 27 years at the MINIMUM

Explain to me the FLAW in my logic. Hybrids are designed to give you a TINY bit more mpg than UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AVERAGE (20mpg) where as the rest of the world laughs at the prius since it gets little better than the NORM over there (Europe 30mpg China 35mpg IIRC are the NORMS there) thats WHY they had to enable EV mode in europe or no one would buy it.

45mpg is worthless when you consider the COST of the car. you can get a car that gets nearly the same MPG for almost 10k less !!!

Compare an economy car that gets 40mpg to the prius that gets average 45 (hell lets go balls to the wall and assume your hard core hybrid and tweak it to get 50mpg and have driving habits or paths that permit this mileager. so you gain 10mpg

do the math. lets use a 10K difference in price. How long will it take you to save 10k in gasoline

Gas is $2.34 around me. $23.40 per 10 gallons

My car will go 400miles your Prius will go 500 miles on 10 gallons each

so everytime we fill up you can go 100 extra miles (remember I am going ALL the way and assume you will always get that precious 50mpg which you are HIGHLY unlikely to be able to do)

So for 400 miles I need 10 gallons you need 8

or I need $23.40 and you need $18.72 per 400 miles traveled.

So we both drive 150,000 miles and have to fill up 375 times (me 10 gallons you 8 gallons)

I bought $8775 of gas you bought

Hmm not fair enough to you yet so lets bump it up to 200,000 miles. I KNOW my car will last that long whether you battery pack will hold out that long is questionable unless your a taxi driver but lets assume your batt will hold that long. thats 50k more than toyota will give you.

So after 200,000 miles how much did we spend on gasoline. 500 Fill ups

ME $11,700 YOU $9,360

YOUR savings in gasoline $2340 Ohhh boy your still $7,660 in the RED there buddy.

Hmm lets figure I want to splurge a little and my car is only 5k cheaper than your car. your STILL in the red by -$2,660 (the point of that hybrid again?)

WAIT lets change up again lets figure I am going to get only 30mpg but still pay 10k less. (actually if we use MY car where I get almost 30mpg (28.5 to 29.5) and it only cost me $1200 ehh no that would not be fair to you.

My 30mpg car takes $32.20 of gas to go 400miles

$15,600 in gasoline to go 200,000 miles

So you saved $6,240 which means your STILL $3,760 in the RED or JUST BARELY black if our cars are only $5k apart in price BUT OOPS wait a minute your battery pack is hosed now. Lets assume they do not rape you $4500 for a new battery.

Still hosed still in the red and not by a small amount.

And this all assumes you can squeeze 200k out of that battery at FULL performance but your battery will start to degrade LONG before it dies. you will probably lose 1mpg every 25,000 miles or so as your battery loses capacity. by the time you hit 150,000 miles that battery will probably be at 70-80% its original capacity (go ask toyota if you don't believe me its just how these batteries work) so in all this math that you always LOSE in I am also giving you the benifit of a fairy tale stays at 100% capacity battery pack.

SO like I original said when the prius gets 100+ mpg in ALL conditions like it SHOULD have before they released ANY models then maybe it will be worth it.

HEY what the hell lets do the math on 100mpg

you would have spent $4,680 on gasoline saving you $7,020 your STILL THREE GRAND in the RED compared to my 40mpg 10k cheaper car!!!

BUT at 100mpg the REDUCTION in pollution would be worth that $3k

now if they DOUBLED the size of the battery pack and could give me EV only upto max speed (lets say 65mph) for 100 miles and let me plug in.

well NOW we have something special. NOW I would be willing to shell out 10k extra. Know why ? wanna guess what my GAS bill would be for 200k miles traveled ? ZIP ZILCH ZERO since its only 54 miles to my job and I can jack in onsite.

so I would make back that extra 10K in under 200,000 miles. (the addition to my utility bill would be under $3 a week so its insignificant to not even worth figuring in) jack in a $400 wind generator and it might just be ZERO additional cost.

Now what do you think of my Hybrid Slamming? they feed up this garbage 45mpg thats no better than what we can already get today and have been able to get for nearly 30 years and you think I have no justification for slamming the pieces of crap?

GO get educated THEN come back and talk to me about slamming hybrids.

and we did not even go into what happens past 200k. if its a diesel I am good for triple that without batting an eye. How many hybrids will you buy in those same 600k miles.

[Chris Taylor @ Mar 24th 2007 5:59PM]

oh and this assumes I BUY a BRAND new car. if I really cared about the environment I would buy a few years old car (2-3 years) still pretty damned new but now you do not have a praire in ever catching up in fuel savings.

[Peter @ Mar 24th 2007 7:13PM]

Chris you are completely full of it. Check real world mileage. In the real world, your average econobox gets about 26MPG or LESS, the The Prius gets over 40MPG (real world). The prius is fully equipped and the size of a Camry, not some stripped econobox. This is essentially double the real world gas mileage of a camry. Not some trivial amount more. If everyone drove a Prius, we would save half the gas being used.

Finally it is not always about how much some greedy bastard like you saves. The pollution from a Prius is lower than just about anything on the road, not just green house gases but all the other crap that creates smog and makes people sick. If everyone drove a Prius we would all breathe easier, some with respitory ailments would live longer. If we all drove smoke belching ancient diesels, the smog would be like big city China.

Your personal greed driven decision to choose to pollute more to save a few bucks, doesn't make Hyrbrids a bad idea, it just makes you greedy putz. Thankfully smog belchers like your are rare.

[Chris Taylor @ Mar 25th 2007 3:51PM]

Peter you are a sad sad individual. my 30 year old 300D gets 28mpg - I ONLY deal with real world mileage. EPA ratings aren't worth the paper there printed on.

My Jeep gets 22mpg average city highway mix. EPA says I will only get 18 highway (I have 31" tires flat level terrain and I drive like a granny plus a few other modifications.

There are plenty of cars the same size as a prius (its NOT a big car ie I can not fit in a prius at 6'3" without hitting my head.

a VW Jetta TDI will get 52mpg REAL WORLD highway mileage at 75mph with the air on. this has been DONE ie NOT some EPA crap measurement.

I do not care what math you try to use (oh thats right you used NONE) 52mpg in the Jetta versus 40-45mpg in the Prius means the Jetta pollutes LESS and thats not even counting the pollution to PRODUCE and DISPOSE of that prius that VW Jetta will EASILY last half a million miles with ZERO major maintenance if properly cared for.

and screw off with the "Greedy Bastard" crap. I am sooo sorry that I am not wealthy like you where as you can afford to go toss $23,000 around and buy a Prius poor humble me can not even afford the god damned down payment on a Prius.

I would eat oodles and noodles for the next 5 years to save up enough to buy an EV1 which would TRULY have a magnificent effect on the environment (AND my Gas bill)

but a pathetic prius with its MEASILY 40-45mpg makes me SICK that they are pushing this as "high tech" and "good for the environment" when its anything BUT.

It makes me sick to see fanboys like you brainwashed or deluded into thinking these pathetic cars are actually good for the environment.

a Hybrid made sense 20 years ago when we did not have effecient batteries engines or electrics.

Today and even 10+ years ago Hybrids became obsolete. FULLY electric is the way to go. They know it I know it and YOU would know it if you would get you head out of your bum.

But you see FULLY EV is GOOD for you and me and GOOD for old earth here but NOT SO GOOD for big business. its the ONLY reason everyone one of us is not driving around in EV cars RIGHT NOW.

Hydrogern Fuel Cells ?? give me a break. there are 2 and ONLY 2 reasons they are even thinking abouyt Hydrogen

#1 its SO blue sky that its impossible to make for at least 20-30 years (ever see the figures on how long our oil will last. interesting coincidence ehh)

#2 ITS FUEL that has to be purchased. Thats right it RETAINS your DEPENDANCE on them to provide you with FUEL and before you think hey I can set up a solar array to electrolyze my own hydrogen. NOT ONLY is this incredible expensive and inefficient but YOU WATCH if Hydrogren gets serious you will see how fast that option will be regulated away as ILLEGAL for the end user to perform.

THose are the ONLY reasons we are even THINKING about hydrogen or fuel cells. anyone with half a functioning brain can see this without thinking very hard.

when the technology to ELIMINATE car pollution is already here and has been for well over 10 years.

the EV1 could go nearly 200 miles on a charge (170 IIRC) and that was over 10 freaking years ago!!!

WHO HERE commutes greater than 100 miles each way assuming you can not plug in at work. I would be MOST impressed to find even a SINGLE person on this ENTIRE site that has to commute more than 100 miles each way 200 miles if they can plug in at work.

Find me one and I will be impressed. find me more than a small percentage and your a miracle worker.

NO Pollution NOT EVEN secondary pollution if you live where you get solar wind nuclear or hydro power.

NO IC to wear out virtually maintenance free (wipers brakes thats about it)

under $4k for a replacement battery that WILL last 150k miles. You do realize that the big NIMH batteries were invented FOR the electric car right?

Guess who owned 51% of the company that invented the batteries and then promptly killed it ? Exxon. Cute ehh.

Freaking deluded brainwashed fanboys. YOU are the reason people are gleeful at a pathetic 40-45mpg $23,000 piece of junk.

[Appointed @ Mar 24th 2007 8:45PM]

Heehee, this is so hilarious..


This article has been debunked six ways from Sunday, so one more can't hurt.

'Rob' does some good math back on page one. According to the $3.25 per mile he comes up with $56k expense for the first year, which is already ~2.5x the purchase price of the car. Add to that the fact that the $3.25 per mile cost is agregated over time. It's the price of gas for that mile and a little bit of the cost of manufacture. Meaning that the cost of production has to be even higher than $56k. So if these figures were true, Toyota would lose at least $33k on each car sold for $23k.


C'mon...these aren't PS3's...

It's great to see more and more people looking for ways to benefit the earth, but the tech just isn't the problem.

I can't help but agree with one of the previous posters and think that a lone 10mpg Suburban with 8 people carpooling in it is probably better for the environment than 8 Prius owners riding single in the commuter lane.

But people DON'T CARPOOL like that. Or use mass transit. The tech is there, but people DON'T USE IT because it would interfere with their lifestyle. Replace all the Hummers and other grotesquely huge SUVs of the morning commute with 55mpg Prius's ? Skip it, I say give 'em each 1985 Honda CRX HFs and have each one getting *60*mpg without the battery waste problem. People could have been driving such (or any number of Japanese/German sedans that get 30 - 40mpg) for the last 25 years...but they wanted to look "Cool" in SUVs instead.

Sadly, that's their right...


BTW - A number of hummer proponants tout the fact that the Prius batteries must inevitably be disposed of. True enough, but last I checked HUMMERS have batteries as well. Toyota warrantys
the Prius batteries for 100k miles. How many batteries is a Hummer (H1/H2/H3) going to go through in that amount of time ? I'm guessing around 3. Have you guys ever seen the batteries in a Prius ? I doubt it's more than 4 times the size/mass of a 'regular' car battery. So in order save about 25% of the battery based waste (true I don't know which is worse per pound Nimh or LEAD-Acid) which probably adds up to 35 to 50 lbs at most, you end up using THOUSANDS of pounds more fuel. Brilliant trade off...

[Chris Taylor @ Mar 25th 2007 3:58PM]

"BTW - A number of hummer proponants tout the fact that the Prius batteries must inevitably be disposed of. True enough, but last I checked HUMMERS have batteries as well"

Oh you mean the starter battery? like the one in my jeep that has well over 250,000 miles on it (the battery the jeep has 450,000 miles on it) or the one in my Mercedes that is at least 12 years old according to the sticker on the battery. That battery? the one that I "might" have to replace ONCE in the entire life of the car IF EVER.

Yeah great comparison to the battery in a hybrid. OH and its not about CAN it be recycled its about WILL THEY recycle it since recycling costs money.

[Appointed @ Mar 25th 2007 8:19PM]

"Oh you mean the starter battery?"

Yes.

"like the one in my jeep...or the one in my Mercedes...the one that I "might" have to replace
ONCE in the entire life of the car IF EVER."

No. As I said, I mean the ones in HUMMERS, most of which will not have a service span like the ones you mentioned. If you take care of your vehicle (and it sounds like *you* do) the battery (and the car in general) can last a very long time. And you personally are to be commended for doing so. But most people DON'T maintain their cars as well as they should. And as a result, most people DON'T get more than 50,000 miles out of a battery (the anecdotal evidence I've seen puts it more around 30 - 40,000). Don't misunderstand, I'm NOT trying to say the Prius, and hybrids in general, are the the complete solution to car based environmental damage (personally i think the best way to reduce the
amount your car pollutes is simply to drive it less).

I was only saying that it's kind of silly to think that the fact that a Hummer has a smaller/uses less battery(ies) obviates the fact that it uses 4 - 5 times the gas (the emissions likely being worse throughout). This would be true even if the hummer only went through one battery it its life. Unless all Hummer batteries are like yours and last at least 12 years/450k miles or the life of the car, after which they do not pollute and require no disposal...

"Yeah great comparison to the battery in a hybrid"

Actually, what I said would be a terrible comparison of a starter battery and the battery from a hybrid. Fortunately that wasn't my intent. My intent was to contrast the environmental trade
off between a low mpg vehicle with less battery waste, and a high mpg car with higher battery waste.

So I'll put out a simple question. In general, which is causing more environmental damage each year, Gasoline or Batteries ?

Heck, I'll throw out another, which part of a Prius is responsible for more pollution. It's gas consumption or it's battery usage ? If it's the batteries than the Hummer (or most other conventional autos) looks mighty green indeed, but if it's the gasoline...