Psystar's OpenMac Apple clone is close to a Cease and Desist order
By Thomas Ricker 
posted Apr 14th 2008 5:22AM
posted Apr 14th 2008 5:22AM
[Thanks, Roberto]
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Well, at least SOMONE has heard the call for a sub-$2500 Mac tower. Not that this is exactly what we had in mind...
It's funny, 'cause it's true.
Yay! Another lawsuit :D
This was bound to happen eventually.
They should have just sold the machines with no OS, without comment. Stupid move on their part.
Definately. Only trouble is, most similarly spec'd dells can run OSx86 with discrete graphics for under $400 from the outlet. I mean 2 years ago I spent $300 on my E510 which has a Pentium D @2.8, and I just upgraded it to 4GB of ram for around $50. And it's, uh, fully capable of running leopard. Came with a DL burner. I'm sure you'd get more for less these days.
But honestly, OSx86 is a gateway for most folks. It runs great but occasionally freezes and tracking down the hardware issue is sketchy, drivers are homebrew, and bottom line it's quasi-illegal. All that said, it's cemented my love for OS X and I'll probably be buying a Mini if the refresh that's hopefully coming soon will bring a superdrive and lift the 3gb ram limit. For $599 it blows the doors off a PowerMac G5 Dual 2.5 which still sells for $800 or more on the bay.
Hey Ryan, I'm always interested in speed comparisons of Macs. Where can I find speed tests of dual G5 2.5 vs. a Mac Mini?
BTW, a lot of people think they need the expansion, hence the premium price... I guess...
I found info here:
http://lowendmac.com/mail/0803mb/0317.html
and
http://www.barefeats.com/
Ryan,
You're right on about the "gateway" of OSx86. I too had a Dell Dimension E510 that ran Tiger almost perfectly. Had to buy a Wifi card that worked with OSX ... but for the most part it was a cheap Mac-capable computer. I have now sold that desktop and primarily just use my M1330 which runs Leopard pretty good.
Apple really needs to sell more laptops and desktops than just like 4 or 5. I'm personally not a big fan of the macbook look, it looks cheap and it's starting to get pretty dated - especially for the price.
And don't get me started on actual desktop towers. Not everyone needs a Mac Pro at like $2,000 or whatever. That's the biggest problem with Apple - the complete lack of variety. It's all the same. It's shame their OS is so easy to use and efficient.
also @ Rob:
Yes, it seems the expandability and discrete graphics is the reason PowerMac's still command a premium. The ability to put as modern an AGP card as you can find in a PowerMac and up it to 4gb of Ram (the mini is limited to 3, as is my Dell E510 sadly) is very nice if you plan on gaming or using 3d. Also, the higher fsb speeds on the PowerMacs makes them interact with ram better. it seems they're much faster at coping large files, but not as good at copying small files.
If you use Universal programs, and you want to use things that are cpu and memory intensive but not 3d-heavy, the Mini's the way to go.
But I'm still holding off for that penryn spec bump.
What's to stop these guys from selling this computer if they remove the "we'll install Leopard for you" option?
Nothing, then it just becomes another pc.
It's not just the fact of them stating they will put Leopard on the machine. It is the machine name 'OpenMac.' Years ago Apple trademarked the word 'Mac' as it pertains to computer hardware and operating systems, thus this company is violating the trademark with their use of 'OpenMac.'
Change the name to 'OpenMike' and offer to provide instruction on installing Leopard, then they should be clear of lawsuit territory as it is now the owner of Leopard who is violating the EULA of the system software.
I'm sure they can legally put a side by side comparison to a Mac, showing that it has the exact same components, and costs 1/5th the price. Apple has taken its overpriced shit too far.
No, unfortunately, Apple is able to (weakly) justify the high
prices/weak capability of the Mini with the fact that it's 1/5 the
size of the above product. The iMac also isn't exactly comparable, since it also uses (some) laptop components. Don't get me wrong, though: it's absolutely disgraceful that Apple refuses to manufacture a sub-$2000 desktop that you can actually swap out the parts in.
That argument doesn't always fly, especially with the upgrade options on Apple's website.
For example, they want £300 extra to put 4GB of RAM into an iMac. You can get better quality RAM for £60 these days!
@Rich
That's nothing! I was in my university's bookstore, and they had "Apple RAM" at $600 for 2GB!
Oh, the humanity!!
@Austin
They manufacture sub-$2000 desktops, but sell them for add-$2000.
p.s, third time I've sent this. hopefully it won't show up 2 more times under some completely different topic.
@Neoprimal
The Mac Pro is ridiculously expensive, starting at around $2800. However, it is not a standard desktop... you have to pay through the nose for its vast expandability. The problem being, most people do not need the kind of potential that it offers- it's suited for heavy video editing or pro-level graphic design. How many desktops offer a peak of 32GB RAM, over 4TB HDD space, and dual quad-core Xeon processors?
Austin - That's 100% BS. The Mac Pro is not "ridiculously expensive" compared to the cost of building a PC yourself to the exact same spec. Try it yourself and see. It's called "You get what you pay for", including a custom made power supply, an all aluminum case, dual E5462 processors, etc.
The problem is in perception. Wow, $2800 is a lot of money, that must mean that Mac Pros are overpriced, right? Wrong. Of course Apple makes some money on them but it's not nearly as out of line as people love to think it is.
It's not like Apple is hiding the fact that they're doing things their own way, and custom building their own logic boards, cases and power supplies. And it's your choice if you don't want to pay for it too, but Mac Pros are not expensive just for the sake of being expensive. You are getting what you pay for. When you build your own PC, you are not getting Apple's cabling system, you're not getting Apple's custom made power supply, you're not getting Apple's all aluminum case and you're definitely not getting a machine that runs nearly silently.
Those are all things you get when you buy a Mac Pro. Whether you think those things are worth it or not is irrelevant, because the point is that you're getting what you pay for - even when you compare it to a parts bin PC.
@Zak-
Wow, did you even read my comment at all? When I say that it's ridiculously expensive, I say that because you HAVE NO CHOICE but to get Xeon processors and the very expensive case. Of course you get what you pay for, but I'm trying to point out that, for most practical situations, people don't need Apple's overkill motherboard and case. There aren't any other viable alternatives when it comes to Apple desktops unless you want the neutered mac mini or iMac.
You know, it's funny, but I prefer my Stacker 830 case to the Mac Pro, it looks better, it has much better cooling and still runs very quietly, my external hard drive makes more noise.
That said, the Mac Pro is expensive, but it isn't overpriced (well, unless you count the RAID option, $800 for hardware RAID? wtf? Oh and unless they've fixed it, the RAID card doesn't work in Windows), it's actually comparable to the cost of building a similar machine from components - however, 6 months down the road, that same machine will cost half as much but the Mac Pro will still be 3 grand, and if the old one is anything to go by, it won't get updated for 18 months.
People want more options than the basic setups Mac provide, they want a machine that's somewhere between the highest end iMac and the Mac Pro, that doesn't have an integrated display so they can save $300 on the cost of their next machine and that has upgradeable hardware, fixed configurations are great for laptops, but there's no excuse for providing desktop machines you can't upgrade.
Apple should team up with Intel and NVidia and release Apple certified hardware, they don't have to try to support all manufacturers or even let manufacturers release their own drivers, but they could support very specific hardware configurations from the top tier vendors they're already using.
@ Zak
Part of what you are saying is true; it does cost about that much for a work station class computer, however most if not all typical users do not require work station computers. Apple fails to provide high end consumer machines; they have mid to low end machines (which are overpriced compared to similarly specs PCs) and then move to a different market with work station machines. They don't cater to the high end consumer.
Also if I built my own machine I could have an all aluminum case, I could do a really clean open cabling layout, I could buy a really powerful and reliable PSU and I could use low noise cooling components for a very quite machine (with water cooling it could be completely silent).
The Mac Pro isn't overpriced but it is irrelevant and overblown even for high end consumers. Maybe if they started making machines with Core 2 Quads and 9800GTX's instead of Xeons and Quadros the price wouldn't be so ridiculously high for the consumer. Also you shouldn't assume Apple is the only one capable of making sleek, powerful and quite machines.
*I'm sure they can legally put a side by side comparison to a Mac, showing that it has the exact same components, and costs 1/5th the price. Apple has taken its overpriced shit too far.*
Oh ya - the specs look just as good as a Mac Pro - and I'm sure it's just as well designed.
I was obviously referring to the Mac Mini, which is also referred to in the article.
Nomis, I hate to do this to you, I really do, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to introduce you to my friend.
"Nomis, this is Fail."
"Fail, this is Novis."
I hope the two of you get on well :)
Kurian on the other hand get's to meet my friend Win. She's a hot blonde/handsome male model* (delete as applicable).
*sorry but the name Kurian doesn't really translate to an obvious gender, so I had to cover both bases. I didn't want to seem sexist for assuming you were a man, even though you probably are!
Lol I'm a guy..
And @Nomis:
You can assemble a dual Xeon PC /w a fully featured Asus board, with 8 RAM slots and a much better workstation GPU than the highest spec'ed Mac Pro, for less $$ than the entry level Mac Pro.
@kurian
Interesting...can you point me in the direction of an 8 ram slot mobo? especially one that supports up to 16gb of ram?
also i think you missed the point....of course you can assemble a cheaper machine yourself, thats usually (though not always) the case, but can you find a similarly specced machine readymade that is cheaper? I tried speccing dells and similar machines and couldn't.
Vaporware. They damn well know that they'll never release this (with Leopard installed) without major legal headaches. So they get the internets all hyped up and talking, then they quietly drop the "Install Leopard" option. They'd be violating Leopard's EULA by installing it on this machine.
Oh, and you can forget support for your OS if they ever do sell it as announced. Not only will you be on your own for tech support matters, but the first OS update from Apple could kill the machine dead.
Idiot.
Where are all the anti-trust lawsuits against Apple for not opening up their platform? Microsoft get fined billions by the EU and Apple go unchecked. I'd love if these guys forced the issue to court and Apple had to open up their hardware it would only be good for consumers and I bet Jobs would be surprised at what it would do to expand the Apple OS user base.
Wholeheartedly agree. I have nothing against Apple, and hell, even enjoy it from time to time, but I do hate Jobs' Draconian management of the OS/Hardware.
C'mon EU! Give Apple a swift kick in the shins and level the playing field.
Probably because none of the governing bodies will ever give a shit about a company with well under majority marketshare. The EU slapped MS with the anti-trust lawsuit because MS has a 80% marketshare or something, and used to be higher?
Your sentiments are always quick to appear whenever Apple and Microsoft are discussed.
When it suits Microsoft fans they will bring up the fact that most of the world uses Windows. Otherwise it's unfair that Apple is left alone (with their 5% market share).
Microsoft is the only dominant and convicted monopolist in the market. Apple does not limit their machines to OS X, in fact Mac OS X is provided for free with the machine. You can exchange for whatever OS you prefer.
As for the openness of the Mac I present the following evidence. The very kernel of the Mac OS is open source (Darwin). You can run X applications all you want on it. The hardware is obviously standard components.
Apple is not attacked for it's bundling practices because you have a choice when it comes to the OS. Microsoft forced large manufacturers like Dell to use Windows or else. Apple is a hardware manufacturer.
And if you don't like Apple's hardware or software you can always choose a Dell with Linux or Windows.
At least that's some of the reasons why Apple is left alone.
@Andrew:
Wow, so OSX is FREE?! I did not know that. Where can I download this free OS?
I think you'll find the previous comment closer to reality. Apple are not attacked for their bundling process because not enough people care. They don't have a large enough market share to be a worthwhile target for the various governments who would bring suit.
A system that dictates which hardware certain software can run on , and restricts it to that hardware exclusively. That sounds more highly anti-competitive than crippling interoperability with other o/s's or bundling a web browser , which is what Microsoft have been called up on in the past.
@Argot
Please visit:
http://developer.apple.com/opensource/index.html
The OS is free *with* the hardware just like I said.
Wow, Andrew, you must be on a first name basis with that guy, Fail. Nowhere in that link you mentioned, does it say that OS X is free. It is not free, and this is patently obvious, in that they charge for OS updates. Please tell me you are not blind and dumb enough to actually continue this line of thought. You have failed. I know, it is hard to admit, but just suck it up, and move on.
I did a goole search for "mac osx", clicked the first link. On that page (Apple's product page for OSX) there is a little "buy now" button in the top right corner. I clicked it. It came to this:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=47638CE4&fnode=home/shop_mac/software/apple&nplm=MB427Z/A
Call me crazy, but my definition of free normally doesn't equal $129 for a single user or $199 for a family pack.
Are you people blind? With, with and with. Read again. The OS is free with the machine. Apple sells the hardware package.
Do you need to buy new versions of the OS? No. Not Vista and not Leopard.
Of course you *can* buy an upgrade if you want to. You could also install Windows or Ubuntu if that's more to your liking or price. Yet the Mac OS is not needed to use the machine (the Apple supplied Windows drivers are evidence enough).
I doubt the EU or anyone will force Apple to 'open up' their hardware. The hardware is mostly off the shelf parts. It is the EFI coding and the OS's link to it that Apple has control of. Apple has a hand in the design of the board so that such parts will fit its case designs (considered by some to be the best in the industry), but for the most part you can purchase all the same stuff at your larger electronics retailers and build your own; IF you have the knowledge, aptitude and time. Factor in those costs to the purchase price of your 'build-it-yourself' system.
You can buy any Intel -based Mac computer and run pretty much any other operating system on it that you want. Apple gave away BootCamp (when it was beta software) to make this simple, supplying drivers for Windows XP/Vista with the caveat that they would not support the other operating system on their hardware. Likewise, Apple does not support their OS on any but their own hardware. BootCamp is now included in the purchase price of a Leopard upgrade. If you purchase Windows, Linux, UNIX or any other OS for your Mac computer, you are on your own as to support. Likewise, you are your own support if you put Leopard on any system other than a support Apple computer.
The cost of Mac OS X Leopard (and Boot Camp) is included in the price of a Mac Computer. This can be considered 'Free' in the same respect that Windows is 'Free' when purchased with a 'Windows' computer; the software and installation price is not normally listed separately from the purchase price of the computer. OS X Leopard can be purchased separately for $129 or as a Family 5-Pack for $199. The iLife '08 suite is similar. Free with purchase of the hardware, but can be purchased separately and as a Family Pack.
There is no upgrade pricing for OS X. So far OS X (client) has cost $129 for all its major versions. Updates are free through 'Software Update' to installed and purchased hardware and software. OS X Server comes in two price categories: $499 for 10-client; $999 for unlimited client. True, the server software only works on Apple hardware, but the server software even works on a Core Solo Mac Mini!
Yes, Apple hardware costs more. I too created a Mac clone using off the shelf parts and a mini ATX case to create a system similar to a Mac Mini in a tower. At the time the parts cost me about $400 (including tax and shipping), OS X about $130, iLife Suite about $80, and about 3 hours to get everything installed and running properly (figure 3 hours at $60/hr = 180; I consider my time valuable! Even my spare time!) Total cost about $790. The Mac Mini only costs $700, was up and running in minutes and hasn't had a hiccup in the year and half I've owned it. The ATX tower I built just went out to the recycler.
@Andrew
Actually, OSX does not come free with the machine. You pay for it, all right. It's bundled into the price of the computer. And since it is bundled in with the price, if you decide to go with Windows, which most Mac users seem to at least install as well with Boot Camp making me dubious about the abilities of Leopard, you will be paying for two OS's instead of one. If you decide to go with Linux, you would be paying for an OS that you will never use. But You would THINK that you are getting it for free because it isn't charged separately.
It's a classic sales ploy. Tack something on for "free" and jack up the price to make up for it; and the word "free" makes the consumer feel all warm and fuzzy about the deal that they are getting.
And from what I'm hearing, Apple sells computers with the same level of quality as other manufacturers but with a much higher price. What do you think is part of that jack up?
June - OS X is not serialized. It never has been. There is zero copy protection on OS X. It basically runs on the honor system. Also, I highly, HIGHLY doubt "most" Mac users install Windows on their Macs. I mean do you have any figures or anything to back that up? Or are you just pulling it out of your... out of thin air? Opinions don't count, use facts please.
The quality of Apple computers is generally much higher than most PC manufacturers. Go look at the inside of a Mac Pro and get back to me on this. I used to have an Alienware, it was crap. Every Dell I've worked on is crap. Most home built PCs are extra crap, as far as quality is concerned. They're just slapped together in "cheap as possible" plastic cases.
Anyone know where I can buy that case?
Asus TA 21, right there
http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=7&l2=37&l3=94&l4=0&model=87&modelmenu=1
The case used here is actually ASUS' TM-210, the MicroATX version of the above-linked case.
I have owned the TA-21 before; decent case.
Oops. Linkage: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811173013
I actually have it. Bought it on newegg and it comes with a powersource. However its not standard atx.
I think Apple is going to go "hmm, let's see what happens" like they are doing with the Axiotron Modbook - even though legally speaking the Modbook is a-OK and this isn't, just so Apple can see the limited market for such a machine. Don't worry - if Dell or some OEM of their size tries to start selling Apple OS's then you will start seeing some serious shit.
No way. Apple will kill this infringement and blatant copyright violation immediately.
Would you allow some guy to steal, copy and sell your product? I am of course referring to the Leopard issue, not the hardware in itself.
Calling a computer a "Mac" is also going to be contested for sure. Apple has copyright on the name and brand it has built over several decades. You don't call your new fast food restaurant "McBurgerKingWendysKFC".
How is it stealing if they pay for a leopard license for each install?
@PJK
Where does it say that?
You are talking about the legality of using a piece of licensed software? The license agreement decides what is legal use of the software. It is illegal to install Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware due to the license agreement.
What difference would it then make if they did purchase the DVD? It would still be illegal use of the software.
@Andrew:
Actually all EULAs are subject to legal interpretation. I would hardly call paying $120 for Leopard and installing it on non mac hardward 'stealing'
In fact those legal interpretations vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. There is quite the discussions on sites (that discuss hacking OS X unto PCs) about the legal matter. There is no definitive court case either way and I think it would be interesting to see where a lawsuit regarding this would go. Just because Apple or Microsoft licenses software a certain way does not mean it legally stands up to intellectual law, especially in all jurisdictions around the world. This is why those EULAs explicitly say that should a certain part of the agreement be considered void in your jurisdiction that all other parts shall be still taken in orginal intent.
And yes, Apples are overpriced. I can get pears for much cheaper. Your arguement elsewhere concerting 'Apple' cabling or Apple powersupply is one of the lamest I have seen on here. I wouldn't be suprised if HP or Sony uses their own cabling or cases as well... lol. Damn and I wanted to buy that Black slimline case for my own DIY PC. IT IS SAD that we are having this arguement, for the very fact that People hack OS X onto cheaper computers PROVES that Apple is overcharging.
Hey, the site just went down. I tried to call the number too to see what would happen and I got the "This number has been disconnected" message. Now either the site crashed because of traffic and also because of that they had to shut down the lines. Or like the con artist that they are (trying to sell a comp with Leopard does clearly violate Apple's Blah blah) they up and ran. Who knows?
Part of me wants to think some young deranged tech at Apple saw this and pulled a DOS attack that utilized so many IP redirects that he inadvertently downed one of the main DNS servers. That would be pretty 1337. HA. I kid.
As a side note: You have gotta love MySQL errors. They make you feel so warm inside.
Site is up. Feel free to continue rambling though.
No 8800gt option? Say it ain't so!
Maybe no 8800 option is a good thing (at least for non-gamers):
http://www.barefeats.com/harper10.html
A lot of Mac Pro users who paid extra for the 8800 are pissed to see their pro applications would have run faster on the stock 2600!
I wish Apple would EOL the iMac. Who really wants that glossy toy anyways? Most men want real computers, with real desktop parts. The on;yy problem is, Apple thinks we are all millionaires able to buy the Mac Pro.
@JohnPQ
LOL. 'Most men want real computers, with real desktop parts.'
Dude, have you ever been laid? Most MEN don't care about computers.
I like my iMac just fine for music and photos, but of course I built my PC from components. How else would I get any games to run? But I do all my work on my MBP w/Parallels.
If you don't like glossy toys, then why do you want a Mac in the first place?
The iMac is a very nice all-in-one solution, and while I'm not a mac user, I must admire that they can fit an entire computer into the space normally consumed by a desktop LCD monitor. If you're short on desk space, it's a very attractive option.
So, I don't think they have any reason to EOL it. They just need to introduce some lower-end Mac Pro options.
"Most men want real computers"
GAAAAAAhahahahahahahahaha
Oh man, ignorance is funny. And yes, obviously you have to be a millionaire to buy a Mac, but not a PC. Not even PCs that cost over 6 grand. I mean come on, have you even heard of Alienware? Or Dell?
Looks like it's back up with a message about server over load. Interesting...
Yeah, it's spec'd like a mini but lacks the small size, i-apps, and OS X license. Sure sounds equivalent to me. :-^
Put Linux on the damn thing and go away for God's sake.
you want "mac" on a normal pc? it is called BSD look it up. Mac OS is worse than windows in this sense, widows is all closed source (ok it takes its dhcp stuff from bsd), linux all open, and mac half and half! Its BSD with a nice little gui over it. Anyone on a mac open terminal and type "emacs" welcome to GNU
Hah! I own the white PC case for my filer server. Here's to hoping they swap out the default fan and PSU...it's not quiet at all!
Hah! I own the white PC case for my filer server. Here's to hoping they swap out the default fan and PSU...it's not quiet at all!
What the hell, by doing this they could ruin the entire OSX86 community... if thats what they are intended to do... madness!
You cannot say "I am selling a product called an OPENMAC!" and not expect Apple to freak out.
I hate apple computers. This thread is filled with e-peen and fanboys.
@PJK
When you buy Leopard DVD, you buy not only the dvd itself but the license, which is under specific condition. Your consent is regarded as you buy one. You can check out the condition at store.apple.com. (Single-user Software License Agreement allows the install and use one copy of the Apple Software on up to a maximum of (1) "Apple-labeled computer" at a time.)
How much does it cost by the time you add ethernet , wireless networking, a DVI port, Firewire, sound, a remote control, OSX, iLife, and the other basic goodies that Macs generally come with?
I don't get people saying that MacPros are overpriced. Just take 10 mins of your time and try to build a MacPro comparable dell tower, and you will be striked by the thruth. Check this out:
Basic specs for both MacPro and Dell tower:
* One Intel xeod quad-core processor at 2.8 Ghz
* 2 GB RAM
* 320 HD 7200 RPM
* 16x DVD-RW
* 512 MB nVidia graphics addapter
* No monitor
* 3 year warranty
Here is the results:
MacPro: http://www.victorespina.com/public/Apple%20MacPro.pdf
Dell Precision 7400: http://www.victorespina.com/public/Dell%20Precision%20T7400.pdf
Here you can see how Dell will charge you almost TWICE the price of a MacPro with similar hardware specs.
So, Mac tower overpriced? think twice!!
just two observations:
1- the x86 darwin kernel is free. If you want to run from a command line, you can download it and patch it into your linux distro. I don't think you can say the same for DOS or any other component of XP or Vista approaching the importance of the kernel. In fact the x86 darwin kernel was available long before x86 macs were.
2- there is no cabling in my mac pro. The hard drives all plug directly into the mobo. Even if I home built a machine, I would be hard pressed to find PC hardware this well engineered. I feel the money I spent on this machine far outweighs the drive over-heating and CPU issues brought on by cabling alone in my previous IDE PC hardware machine.
Sure it would be nice to have more choice and to buy HD and RAM from the same place I bought the computer from, but in the end it is how effective the machine is. The OS is what drew me to it, but the hardware is just as well designed. Before anyone comments, I do not feel this way about any other Mac machines. The "i" series is treated as disposable buy Apple (heaven forbid that a drive fails and you have to open up the chinese puzzle box to replace it, same goes for their laptops -- would it hurt you to give access to the components that will fail or require upgrading exponentially cheaper than all-new hardware and remarkably better for the environment than putting the huge plastic mass in a landfill) In the end consumers come last and money comes first. If you look at the products, the sum quality of Apple products is much more solid based on their (albeit shitty) business model, where Microsoft's products are less solid based on their "not my problem" attitude. As a consumer, I want something that works. I paid for a top-end Mac Pro. I didn't pay for Windows.