FireWire 1600 and 3200 approved by IEEE

While FireWire 800 gear is still pretty rare and we've only seen one piece of FireWire 1600 kit, the IEEE is still pushing the standard forward -- it's just approved the 1394-2008 spec, which includes both FireWire 1600 and 3200. Interestingly, the spec is fully backwards compatible with both 400 and 800 ports, but it remains to be seen which connector gets used more prevalently. We'll find out in October, when the spec is made available to manufacturers -- looks like that controversial 2010 launch of USB 3.0 just got upstaged a little, huh?

[Via CrunchGear]

[Jubei @ Jul 31st 2008 2:38AM]

Firewire is awesome. So much faster and barely makes a dent from your CPU cycles. Unlike USB.

[who? @ Jul 31st 2008 3:06AM]

No kidding! You wanna put a movie on that PMP? Click. Done.

No more f-ing around with this USB crap... no fans going full blast to fill up my crappy MP3 player! Hooray!

[Michael LaFramboise @ Jul 31st 2008 3:35AM]

Whats interesting is that when I'm using my MacBook Pro, if I install OS X on an external FW800 HD, it actually works faster then when booting from my internal. Granted the external is a 500 GB 7200 vs internal being 160 at 5400... but still I mean SATA is way faster in theory... and it literally takes me 10x less to open large documents when I'm booting from the external...

[MioTheGreat @ Jul 31st 2008 3:36AM]

DMA support isn't always a good thing for hot pluggable devices. As we all know, it has security implications.


Anyway, it remains to be seen whether this has a higher bandwidth than USB 3.0.

Based on the rather rough preliminary information given on both, it's looking like 3.0 might be capable of higher speeds than 3200 under certain conditions.

[Kelmon @ Jul 31st 2008 6:39AM]

I lament the day that Apple dropped Firewire support for the iPod. I know that USB is more popular and better supported, but it was a considerable shame not least because it meant no more installing OS X on your iPod to use as an emergency boot disk in case of problems. That said, I believe you can now do that with USB somehow.

Here's hoping that Firewire continues to lead a long life.

[This Is Me @ Jul 31st 2008 8:39AM]

Was just going to make that very comment Jubei; looking forward to Firewire's continued development.

[Nihility @ Jul 31st 2008 9:57AM]

Considering the fact that any implementation of firewire requires you to pay royalties, I think it's safe to assume it won't become the prevalent standard and we can all continue to not give a fuck.

[Muhammed @ Jul 31st 2008 2:38AM]

very good news, hoping they get standardized soon.

[I LOVE THE CAPS LOCK KEY @ Jul 31st 2008 3:12AM]

It's expected to be available this October. A 1394 Automotive spec is also in the works. Should be rather interesting.

http://www.ddj.com/embedded/209800384

7-10-2008
http://edageek.com/2008/07/10/multimedia-specification/
http://www.1394ta.org/Press/TAPress/2008_0709.html

[Michael LaFramboise @ Jul 31st 2008 3:36AM]

"standard" is the keyword there... as long as they don't come out w/ 2 more connects and stick to the existing ones, it'll be wonderful

[I LOVE THE CAPS LOCK KEY @ Jul 31st 2008 1:14PM]

Michael LaFramboise,

It's said that the next 1394 will use the firewire 800 plug and the reason 400 and 800 use different plugs is because users would often stick the 1394a plug in backwards thereby short circuiting what ever device was inserted incorrectly. 1394b's Asymmetrical plug solved that problem and will be the standard plug for the foreseeable future.

[BigDaddyM @ Jul 31st 2008 2:41AM]

It woudl be better if they stuck with 3200 and o with one new standard instead of having 1600 to add to the mix since we already have 400 qand 800. It seems it is just an added spec for no reason.

Peopel like simplicity, unless there is a technical reason for the 1600, maybe an up to 1600 connector? But then why?

Engadget previously said that the new connectors will be teh Firewire 800 variety...
M

[Haikibutsu @ Jul 31st 2008 2:52AM]

I love Firewire! Shame my dad doesn't have a port.

Everything is USB nowadays, I use up all 8 of my USB hub ports, seeing as how my MacBook has only 2 USB ports. Its a relief when I get a firewire device to plug in and daisy chain.

[who? @ Jul 31st 2008 3:11AM]

Yeah, I know! My 8 USB ports are also full, and I have no firewire stuff. I wish the iPods/iPhone were firewire, they all seem to take so long to fill up with movies...

[Rex @ Jul 31st 2008 2:25PM]

You can daisy chain USB hubs you know. USB supports 127 devices per port.

[andres @ Jul 31st 2008 3:38PM]

@rex 127 devices per controller, not port

[Michael Scrip @ Jul 31st 2008 3:07AM]

Will there be any real world benefit of Firewire 3200 over eSATA?

Most motherboards already have eSATA onboard... is there any advantage to adding a Firewire 3200 card and using a Firewire 3200 external enclosure for a hard drive?

[andres @ Jul 31st 2008 3:21AM]

a cool logo

[shakes2 @ Jul 31st 2008 3:33AM]

The advantage is in the use of things other than sata. While esata has benefit in providing connection to externals, you might see power over 1600/3200 as well as daisy chaining. The last I heard of the protocol, the FCC submission said that the same 800 plug would be used but offered something much more in terms of how the protocol takes advantage of the pins. I havent read it in a while so the details will remain vague from me. Perhaps the more useful applications will be the use of large, full frame DSLR and landscape cameras that will transfer cards full of 30MP pictures and High Definition Cameras that will transfer 50 GB per transfer and from someone using a camera as a deck, such as a prosumer or a small budget videographer, the lack of a tape deck requires high speed transfer. We could get into other AV/multimedia applications but basically, anything that doesnt use a hard drive is fair play and anything that does, might as well use it for a standards consistency.

[This Is Me @ Jul 31st 2008 8:39AM]

One of the detractors -- granted, it isn't an issue for many -- is that eSATA isn't capable of bus-power, IIRC. Secondly (and I'm a bit fuzzy on my memory on this one, correct me if I'm wrong), it's not hot-swappable.

[I LOVE THE CAPS LOCK KEY @ Jul 31st 2008 1:17PM]

Advanteages? How about being able to plug a 1394 storage device in to a camcorder and recording directly to that drive with out requiring a host computer to negotiate the transfers.

[Michael Scrip @ Jul 31st 2008 4:21PM]

> "How about being able to plug a 1394 storage device in to a camcorder and recording directly to that drive with out requiring a host computer to negotiate the transfers."

Ummmm, you can't plug a bare hard drive into a camcorder and have it do anything. Devices like the Firestore have a lot of processing power to take the video and save it into multiple formats, make different clips, etc. It's basically a tiny, special purpose computer strapped to a hard drive.

http://www.focusenhancements.com/solutions/catalog.asp?id=3

[loosely_coupled @ Jul 31st 2008 4:32PM]

Probably not for the purpose of external harddrives, but rather all the other peripherals and accessories that are now using USB or Firewire that are speed sensitive. The most obvious application would be Next-gen DSLRs and eventually consumer digital cameras, not to mention HD video cameras. Also, compact flash and SD card readers should eventually benefit as flash storage balloons in size and speed.

I'm sure most of the first applications will be in high-end professional and industrial equipment such as high-end archival scanners, high-speed large format printers,
professional level scientific data capture devices, etc. Also, I believe Firewire is actually still popular in embedded aerospace uses, e.g. to wire up all the advanced information systems in military aircraft.

[gabe @ Jul 31st 2008 3:50AM]

upstaged? LOL

I can count with one hand on how many people actually use FireWire.

[BuddyBoy @ Jul 31st 2008 4:30AM]

I work in Video production, I can count with one hand, how many people DON'T use FireWire.

[guns @ Jul 31st 2008 4:41AM]

That's unfortunate, though. Firewire chaining is really useful for software RAID sets, target firewire mode on Macs is great for data recovery, and IP over firewire is a really easy way to transfer huge files between machines that don't have gigabit NICs. The transfer rate is faster than over gigE too.

More people would be using it if laptop manufacturers would include the full size ports instead of the crappy 4-pin iLink ports. Cables plugged into those ports feel like they're going to fall out at any moment, and they can't power devices. Of course you'd rather use USB devices.

[guns @ Jul 31st 2008 4:41AM]

That's unfortunate, though. Firewire chaining is really useful for software RAID sets, target firewire mode on Macs is great for data recovery, and IP over firewire is a really easy way to transfer huge files between machines that don't have gigabit NICs. The transfer rate is faster than over gigE too.

More people would be using it if laptop manufacturers would include the full size ports instead of the crappy 4-pin iLink ports. Cables plugged into those ports feel like they're going to fall out at any moment, and they can't power devices. Of course you'd rather use USB devices.

[Bad Beaver @ Jul 31st 2008 4:51AM]

Is there a cure for such a massive case of polydactyly yet? I mean, I don't even want to think about how that hand might look, much less ever see it.

[Bad Beaver @ Jul 31st 2008 6:06AM]

-talking about Gabe's hand of course ;) -

[Steve @ Jul 31st 2008 11:28AM]

I do not mean to pry, but you don't by any chance happen to have six fingers on your right hand?

[Adderz @ Jul 31st 2008 4:14AM]

Unfortunately it doesnt matter how fast Firewire becomes..it will never be able to overtake USB.

USB doesnt need to be the fastest, it just needs to be the cheapest, which is why the entire computer market flocked to it.

Cheap ALWAYS wins in this world...its a fact of life.

Unless they can reduce licensing and implementation costs, it will never be more than a niche market.

[Michael Scrip @ Jul 31st 2008 5:01AM]

> "it will never be able to overtake USB... it will never be more than a niche market."

When USB came out, it was 12 Mbit/s
When Firewire came out is was 400Mbit/s

Firewire has been on every digital camcorder since 1995. And on every Mac and Sony Vaio for years. Now most computers have Firewire. Even though USB 2.0 is 'faster' on paper, Firewire is faster because it uses less CPU overhead and can provide an intelligent peer-to-peer connection between devices.

Sure, every mouse, keyboard, printer and flash drive is USB... Firewire is everywhere, whether you choose to use it or not. Firewire might not be used as much as USB, but it also didn't fool around by connecting keyboards and webcams. It's been a staple for digital video for years, and fast external storage.

I have a USB/Firewire external hard drive... guess which one I use. I don't care if I have 8 USB ports and only 2 Firewire ports... Firewire is faster... any questions?

[Adderz @ Jul 31st 2008 5:07AM]

I still stand by my comments. Firewire will never be able to overtake USB.

I believe it was said in another engadget story that even Sony camcorders are discontinuing Firewire and opting for USB.

External USB hard drives out number Firewire drives 10/1.

Ipods no longer support Firewire, and im not aware of any (common) MP3 player that does.

As i said...Firewire was...and never will be...more than a niche market. I have 2 firewire ports on my Powerbook and imac, and im still yet to use them. Firewire devices simply arent available for regular consumers, and at competitive prices.

[Adderz @ Jul 31st 2008 5:21AM]

obviously u missed the "competitive prices" bit.

Show me a Firewire 400/800 drive that is CHEAPER than its similar USB counterpart, and ill be more than happy to back down.

[michael.ingramjr @ Jul 31st 2008 10:17AM]

You are right that more people will use USB but that doesnt mean its the best. Who cares if my grandmom and sister use USB and dont know what Firewire is. Firewire will outperform USB all the time. Its like your saying more people drive a Honda than Mercedes and since its cheaper its waaaay better!

[Vidikron (FU) @ Jul 31st 2008 10:27AM]

"Firewire is everywhere, whether you choose to use it or not."

That's not even true anymore. I've built several computers in the last half year and you have to specifically look for motherboard with Firewire headers. It seems like more and more are coming without them. And beyond video equipment, the bulk of comsumer electronics don't use Firewire. And the CPU usage of USB is becoming of very little consequence these days with the multicore CPUs... and I never thought it was a big deal anyway.

[Adderz @ Jul 31st 2008 11:19AM]

@michael.

i KNOW USB is inferior by quite a margin. This story proves it.

What im saying is cost always wins over performance.

USB simply has almost 100% market penetration (apart from video editors etc)

Firewire with its higher costs simply cannot compete when the world wants cheap cheap cheap...

[THJ @ Jul 31st 2008 11:35AM]

Of course it'll never be able to overtake USB.

That's like saying external RAID drives will never overtake regular external hard drives.

Or Bentley will never overtake Toyota.

[happy_penguin @ Jul 31st 2008 12:36PM]

Firewire doesn't need to overtake USB. Firewire compliments USB.

[mattkenny @ Aug 1st 2008 1:33AM]

@happy_penguin: Finally someone who gets it!!

Firewire and USB are very different busses. While they do overlap in some areas, they are primarily aimed at different technical usage models. While I don't have much experience with Firewire (as a developer), I have done some work with USB, and let me say this - there is more to USB (and Firewire) than you think. It's not just mass data.

Think about the different needs of say a mouse and a hard drive. The mouse will transfer very little data, but it needs to have VERY low latency, guaranteed (but mininal) bandwidth, and guaranteed timing. A hard drive needs to transfer a lot of data, relatively quickly, but latency is not at all important. It doesn't matter if the hard drive data gets delayed a few 100 milliseconds (or even seconds), but image if that happened to the mouse when gaming...

Now while I can't give you any details about the different scenarios for Firewire, I do know that it isn't designed for the usage of mice... Streaming HD video on the other hand is a different story.

[anabouboula @ Jul 31st 2008 5:24AM]

Where is my IEEE PC?

[nickroz @ Aug 1st 2008 1:40PM]

coming this fall, trust me.

[macdoc @ Jul 31st 2008 5:42AM]

I always look for a firewire solutions first. And there are FireWire Flash Drives out there. Check out Other World Computing (www.macsales.com) for firewire external hards and CD/DVD/Blu-Ray firewire solutions for both PC and Macs.

[macdoc @ Jul 31st 2008 5:44AM]

I always look for a firewire solutions first. And there are FireWire Flash Drives out there. Check out Other World Computing (www.macsales.com) for firewire external hard drives and CD/DVD/Blu-Ray firewire solutions for both PC and Macs.

[neofolklore @ Jul 31st 2008 8:12AM]

I guess for moving 4K videos around, in the future.

[This Is Me @ Jul 31st 2008 8:45AM]

> "it will never be able to overtake USB... it will never be more than a niche market."

It doesn't have to be; it serves its purpose well for those who need it for what it does.

Besides, having a "competing standard" (even if by your definition it isn't a true competition) is good; it keeps the other trying a bit harder. It would be like knocking the Mac OS as being a niche market with the "why bother" attitude; if it wasn't for competing OSes, the world would be forced to use DOS 37 at this point.

[somewhatboxes @ Jul 31st 2008 9:38AM]

Not to sound anti competitive, but this battle of formats is just going to disenfranchise notebook manufacturers who take a chance with Firewire and get ruined because they either tried to support both formats (and thus seemed gimped on both sides) or took a full leap and left the user with nothing of value. If there's going to be a battle of any sort, I'd prefer to see it be between an eSATA revision that supplies power (which should be the next rev if I'm not mistaken) and USB 3.0

[Ryan M @ Jul 31st 2008 9:44AM]

Yeah, firewire absolutely rocks. It is slightly more expensive, but not outrageously so. A Western Digital 1 Tb MyBook "Home Edition" goes for a bit over $200 (can be had cheaper, but just in general) and has Firewire 400 ports. The "Studio" edition with FW800 ports is a tad but more expensive, at like $230. I suppose that's over 10% more expensive, but I think FW800 is pretty niche...FW400 not so much.

I love Firewire too. The {Firewire} 400 connector is brilliant in that you know what direction you need to hook it up in, unfortunately they messed that up with FW800. The fact you can daisy-chain it is nice, and a 6-pin FW port on a computer always has plenty of power to run a little 2.5" Drive, vs. USB ports where some are high power, some are not, etc.

[Dave @ Jul 31st 2008 10:47AM]

I didn't even know my laptop had a firewire port, and then a few years back, my girlfriend had an iPod that supported it, and I used it that one time.

I am never opposed to good tech, but USB does seem to have a stranglehold on the everyday consumer. It will be interesting to watch further developments on this.

[Andreas @ Jul 31st 2008 11:20AM]

FireWire made a big mistake not thinking through the connector from day one. The FW400 connector is too loose, it's not safe. The FW800 is better, but still a little strange. The people behind USB thought things through with this. The USB connector is physically very stable. It sticks to the port unlike any of the FW.

I felt like FW lost the battle when they had to change the connector. My MacBook Pro should have two FW and two USB. Instead it has one FW400, one FW800 and 2 USB. This is stupid...