Another month, another compelling
Apple patent application that's just too delectable to ignore. This go 'round, the Cupertino powerhouse has filed a lengthy document that spells out its plans to revolutionize the multitouch game by creating a solution that recognizes both palms and all ten fingers. According to the filing, such a system could provide "unprecedented integration of typing, resting, pointing, scrolling, 3D manipulation, and handwriting into a versatile, ergonomic computer input device," and when we hear things like "computer input device," we think of precisely one thing. Of course, the oft-rumored
Apple tablet has been spinning for what feels like ages now, and we've definitely seen countless applications from the company that
have yet to lead to any meaningful developments. Still, a multitouch surface that recognizes all ten digits simultaneously? Slap that on a Palm IIIc and we'd still be interested.
posted Oct 2nd 2009 1:20AM
Will it recognize the male genitals?
Why would apple waste their resources on that kind of research?
Specially when most of their fans consider apple logo to be better than porn and sex itself
LOL @ Dr. House
Sadly, its so true...
Anyways, this looks interesting, I don't think you can use your penis for much input anyways haha
It's about time. I am so sick of typing with my fingers only,
Try typing with your palms on windows or android.
Steve jobs walks on water, macs resell for more than what you pay for them two.
Considering the folks I see using Apple's at Starbucks, I think it may be designed to recognize waves of attraction between the genitalia of two different males
[random joke about penis input and putting penis in]
/sarcasm
ahahah, I'm really funny!
Forgive my ignorance, but how is this different from normal multitouch?
1. It will cost twice as much
2. It will make you cooler than the non-hipsters with their boring old normal multitouch.
3. It will be available in white, shiny white, and extra shiny white with silver accents.
remember Steve's speech about how software was better than hardware (for input on phones, because software changes the inputs for each app, etc)
This is basically a soft Keyboard for your desktop computer.
This is pretty fucked up. This is pure star trek.
Look at your hands, put them together. Apple wanted this thing to be 10.7" diagonal.. so your hands could fit the 'keyboard'...
But...we already know the pifalls of soft keyboards (as the iPhone experience is OK, but not perfect)... why would we want to take that 'unreliability' to the... desktop.
Well, maybe because in doing so, you can set yourself up for taking that 'keyboard' with you, and use it as a digital textbook, bla bla...
I can't read SJ's mind. No one on this board can. But I will say, it sounds like Multitouch 2.0 because you'd be replacing not the cell phone plastic keys, but now the Desktop plastic keys.
Microsoft has already patented that:
Microsoft patents cool multi-touch virtual keyboard
Microsoft's patent covers the automatic appearance of a keyboard if it recognizes the palm and fingers of both hands on a multi-touch screen.
http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=8236
mike has it right.
Surur, exactly.
Microsoft already patented this earlier.
if MS's patent for a seemingly 'ergonomic' (read: split in two) soft keyboard holds up, Apple will have to pay licensing fees. Time to tip in to the $40B warchest (And MS's version better be damn good without predictive text patents).
Or you can just pay the lawyers to make that MS paperwork go away.. by claiming that.. Apple's is very different.
MS's patent relates to the software keyboard almost exclusively, while Apple's patent seems to highlight the minutia of finger movements (ignoring the software) and how they can interact with the hardware(screen). We literally have no idea what Apple's 'keyboard' will look like. It could be a bigger iPhone keyboard, but that's pretty lazy.It could be completely fixed (whereas the MS version pivots on, say, your index finger and determines orientation via other fingers in relation to that, etc).
Since Apple's 'screen' 10'7 inches is pretty small, it might not move, who's knows (MS deals with very big Surface screens where there could be a few people sitting around the table)
I can't wait for the Tablet. Don't hold your breath for the MS stuff. MS Research does TONS of stuff, and many of which never see the light of day. MS would love to just make money by licensing patents, rather than take a gamble with their own stuff. Why take a risk when you don't have to?
Bill has been known for eluding that if he had to do it all over again, he'd spend the first part of his life patenting everything and the second part prosecuting.
This is the difference between Apple and Microsoft. This patent might actually result in a real product being used by a real human being.
Its not about 'winning', its about 'making' aka earning. That why Americans coined the term 'making money'.
Steveorevo
It's ironic that you elevate creation over prosecution, but at the same time celebrate "making money" which has obviously resulted in a culture that is entirely indifferent to how said money is made... i.e. the money part is more important than the making part or anything else.
It's also incredibly tragic. Yay money.
By the way, it's doubly ironic that you dismiss litigation because 2 prominent humanitarians and civil rights activists that readily come to mind are Gandhi and Mandela.
I get your point though... Apple great, everything else, sucks.
It's an attempt at more and more directing devices at toddlers and their way of handling things, next will be the 'adjusting volume with teething ring'.
Regular multi-touch just leaves fingerprints on the screen. This new technology will the whole hand-print instead!
We all look back at the dark ages when we only had to worry about fingerprint smudges instead of whole hand smears. Ah, progress.
@Please forgive me
Sorry, I can't forgive true ignorance. What you fail to understand in the term 'money' as in 'Yah money', is that money is the honesty note the says "I worked this hard" to be traded with other's hard work. A farmer could trade with a blacksmith.
Before honesty notes could be traded, both the farmer and the blacksmith's family starved.
Its elementary, but your prejudice, or pre-judgement, proceeds you. It is wrong to quickly and exactly associate it with corruption (which is my point -patent trolling is far from 'honest work'). Which, before these "honesty (notes)" casted humans into the dark ages.
But prejudice goes hand in hand with true ignorance and enlightenment is the seed you should be planting. Both Gandhi and Mandela both elevate honesty above prosecution (and especially prosecution of the innocent).
im starting to get a feeling that apple has a whole department just to watch microsoft future vision, software + service, and microsoft research proof of concept style videos and patent every last thing that microsoft didn't because they thought they had it covered. anybody else feel that way?
The difference is obvious - this one is curved.
Steveorevo,
It's easy to use the cultural meme that hard work is good for you, but in your own estimation... I've answered for my part...
What is work?
Oten a means of survival that is today more cultural than physical.
What do you personally see as the benefits of hard work vs easy work?
No perceptible benefit to hard work in comparison to easy work. Easy work is obviously preferred.
How hard should work be?
Work should be as easy as possible, hence the multitude of innovations.
How much effort is valuable and how little, pointless?
Again, a puritanical notion that one must apply themselves, without ever wondering what the hell is the aim, to what end? When survival is guaranteed, to what end is hard work and effort worthwhile?
How did you or anyone else come to the conclusion that hard work is good?
There is no evidence anywhere except in the Feudal Lord's conception and doctrine that hard work is at all beneficial. It's a tool of exploitation, not liberation.
Yeah, I know some of the historical preconceptions, but today, do you still need to work hard?
We do not still need to work hard, but some people are so unhappy with life that they need to work hard to justify their lives.
What do you get out of hard work, today?
Not much except money or mockery, which does not make up for the time you lost, or the family time, or the time with friends, etc.
Is all hard work equal?
Never was and never will be. Cerebral hard work is more useful, but having the ability to also perform physical hard work is advantageous. Brawn vs brain is a long lasting cultural meme, but most people don't really understand why brain is preferred, or how that came to be. Not the ideas about it, the practicalties about it.
Is difficulty a glamorized concept, just like suffering is more noble?
Yes, difficulty and suffering are concepts that cultures use to maintain control over the populace. The tragedy is that citizens do not realize they're being manipulated into believing propaganda disseminated by those in power, so they inconveniently espouse them.
My only prejudice is against people who want to continue to live in the dark ages and refuse to advance their minds. Things change, and so must concepts.
YOu may be out of work in the not too distant future due to technological efficiency... are you going to take on self-flagellation to compensate?
I'm going to be reading, making music and art. I know some people will be absolutely miserable that we won't have work, let alone hard work. Tough poopies.
When is it OK to reenter Eden and stop dishing and relishing the anguish?
Only once you can love yourself enough that you don't need to punish yourself or others with anything hard. I'm ready so open the damn gates.
By the way, I work very hard, because I have an intellectual goal and because I have responsibilities... but I don't cherish the work, I try to appreciate the insights I achieve with the work.
Monwy sucks, plain and simple. Think about the benefit it has brought and the damage it has done, and if you're at all intellectually honest, you'll see that money has wrought more devestation for more people than it has brought benefit. Really, it't not me that's delusional, it's you that's living in a fantasy.
I agree it's not "new" it's exactly what Fingerworks used to do. Although the Fingerworks boards could only identify one hand at a time and were split into two panels for two handed multi-touch.
Fingerworks was bought out by Apple back in 2005 or so but you can still find their stuff on ebay if you poke around. They had a really cool board that was silkscreened for keyboards and could also do multi-touch functions and could figure out your typing from 2,3, & 4 finger gestures and filter out stray things like palms resting on the pad. The main drawback as a keyboard was that it was dead flat glass... terrible for long term typing. Of course it was pushing $300 for a keyboard so the company didn't do that well. Of course that guy works for Apple now and we're seeing his work trickle out.
@Surur
You realize that what you linked to isn't a patent, it's a publication, which means that MS only APPLIED for a patent. Nothing's been granted yet.
@Please forgive me
"I get your point though... Apple great, everything else, sucks."
Nope, you've missed my point completely. The point is, obtaining money falsely through corrupt means is wrong. It cheats those that have had to work hard.
"How did you or anyone else come to the conclusion that hard work is good?"
Again, your prejudice proceeds you. I believe you are revealing your own fixation and meme on that one. I never said "hard work is good". YOU ARE DELUSIONAL AND HEARING (dare I say reading?) THINGS. It is why I'm a technologist that loves to create and find solutions to 'hard work' or what some might perceive as 'hard problems'.
"Monwy sucks, ...see that money has wrought more devestation for more people than it has brought benefit."
My second point, as I've stated prior, is that DISHONESTY, PERSECUTION and SLAVERY sucks.
Money is just an object pointer.
Money has no self interest or motive.
As soon as it falls upon dishonest hands it devalues.
I'll agree that obtaining money through DISHONEST means (which I'm sure you can relate too) has wrought devastation for people, but just as any other communication mechanism and object pointer it has brought infinitely more benefits and has freed many from the wraths of slavery and prejudice.
"Really, it't not me that's delusional, it's you that's living in a fantasy."
Hmmm, I see talking to you is like talking to a dining room table. Now that is pointless!
I'm just amazed at how quick this tech is growing, and how natural it can feel during use.
Natural? How are software keyboards natural? If anything, they are counter-intuitive.
Color me unimpressed. I'm betting that this technology will fade into obsolescence before it's ever used in an Apple product.
@o29 .. yeh because Apple has never released a device that used multi-touch concepts like that shown in the patent. It sure as hell hasn't sold millions and millions of them.
On second thought if you mean multi-touch in general, then I agree that something like pinching to zoom feels natural. But since this specific patent deals with using the entire hand, it probably has to do with something like text input, and text input on any touch screen is at best an inferior substitute for a physical keyboard.
@Nathan:
Where did I denounce multi-touch in general? My point was that this patent doesn't provide any significant improvement over what is already available.
it will be natural once the pc recognizes thoughts, body language, and voice. even today, voice recognition is mediocre with background noises.
Natural in the sense that toddlers would use it like that, slamming things with their palms, pawing with multiple fingers, it's all toddler based I tell you, and it might be linked to the general drop in intellect of the human race, future proof technology.
iChat with a high-five feature?
HAHA, good one.
Not poppin'.
Patents are getting in the way of technology innovations...
did you go to college?
without patents there would financially be a disincentive to do anything new. i know its been said a million times, and i guess it will have to be said 2 miillion times.
Look at multitouch on the iPhone. Apple came out and said they had patents (200) on the phone, (they acquired a company called Fingermagics or Multitouch stuff)...
Every phone since the iPhone has 'borrowed' many of the iPhone innovations. Er. Apple is being INCREDIBLY nice by not suing these guys. But yes, if they wanted to Google, Palm, and maybe even LG would be in court. But.. no one buys those other phones, so, financially its not worth burning the relationship. Or wasting lawyer fees.
As Denzel said, "This is Chess, not Checkers"
+879870
@mike
Are you saying that apple owns the patents to multitouch?
@mike
apple did not invent LCD, cellphome, 3g network, GUI, mp3 player,touch screen, etc, etc. Apple has never been innovative, they are good at improvement and marketing. Heck, they even built osx on top of unix
@mike
"did you go to college?" Spoken like a deuchebag with an undergraduate degree in something unrelated, trying to sound condescending.
A patent is NOT the only financial incentive to do something. In fact, MANY industries have thrived for countless generations without the use of patents. The fact is that patents today are generally used as negotiation tactics and impediments to your competition - NOT to protect an actual innovation. It effectively amounts to a 17 year, government-granted monopoly on what is, in many cases, the next logical step in a technological evolution. I don't see how this patent should pass the "non-obvious to a person skilled in the art" test. "Let's see...first we could touch with one finger, then two, then five. I know....I'll patent 10! And I'll toss in some crap about how it MIGHT be used, so that the whole thing will go through despite only the arguably non-patentable UI stuff being moderately novel."
Despite the "200" patents in the iPhone, it hasn't stopped a slew of knock-off phones from coming out. It hasn't stopped many manufacturers from building touchscreen-only phones, it hasn't stopped onscreen keyboards from having auto-correct. Yet somehow, Apple braves the storm. I could go on and on about patents, but let me point you to two good examples: Movies, and Fashion. Both these industries have NUMEROUS "copycats" of any reputable, original work. Storylines get re-imagined, hemlines get reproduced by Macy's after some designer does something clever. There are no patents on dress shapes, no patent on "guy drives across the country to see his girlfriend, only to fall in love with the girl he's riding with". Both these industries thrive in the absence of copyright, where derivative works actually INCREASE the value of the original.
So it is with the iPhone. So the original poster is correct - patents are getting in the way of innovations. Now for someone to do something truly creative with full-hand multitouch, they'll have to work AROUND Apple's patents. Sure, that might slow down another product because they must not only do something creative and original, but must also work around thousands upon thousands of "patents" for what are in many cases overly broad, obvious patents.
Need I remind you of the long-fought battle Apple lost on "Organizing music in a hierarchy on a mobile music player"? Something that had already been done on computers was put onto a mobile device. Sure, it was clever of Creative to do it. But did they really deserve 17 years of monopoly protection on categorizing music on an MP3 player? Would we all (as consumers) REALLY be better off if Apple hadn't chosen to ignore that patent?
Bah!
"Both these industries thrive in the absence of **patents**, where derivative works actually INCREASE the value of the original."
Copyright is a whole separate issue. One equally bogus, in many cases, but separate.
@ mike: I'm guessing you never used a PDA or smart phone before the iPhone, to be so ignorant to say that Apple could sue Palm, LG etc. BTW, the iPhone interface, well I had that on my Treo 600, less flashy, but just as functional.
am i the only one who sees a Star Trek interface here???
and that's my geek of the night
It looks more Minority Report than Star Trek to me.
Minority Report is more like Project Natal.
next they'll patent controlling your mac by wiggling your eyebrows
i..i thi-. i think i'm starting to realize how much Engadget loves Apple...
Welcome to Engadget!
you must have missed the WIndows 7 Parties. And the Zune worship.
Microsoft is using 1970's tupperware 'parties' (which only Leo Laporte will be hosting) to promote is latest Operating System. Its the corniest shit on Earth.
They're in the know. How can they enthusiastically root for MS?
Aaron meet Darren. Darren loves Apple. I'm pretty sure Darren is an apple.
@ mike: who said anything about MS?
@projectdecember
Are you serious... you really think that you're going to get a discussion about Apple without mentioning Microsoft? or vice versa?
You must not come here everyday.
I was trying to prove a point. Too subtle for ya?
If you think the Zune worship (which has totally dies down now) even compares to the way Engadget gave over their entire site to the iPhone release, you're way wrong. The Zune got about the same attention as the iPod shuffle.
The future is obviously in touchscreen and multi-touch interfaces.
I think now is a good time to invest in a company that makes screen wiping cloths.
LOL.
Well, Microsoft was just granted the patent for placing hands upon a touch surface and having it automatically detect and bring up a keyboard and other related functions, so we'll see how far this gets..
Yep Surface already does this in a very sophisticated way.
I'm sure Apples approach will be different, but they aint the only cow in this paddock.
Surface just doesn't appeal to the general consumer though - its more used for commercial presentations - and i dont even know what. Not really Apple's general market, and I cant see this technology going into a mobile device - they're just too small (buth then again, maybe I'm the only one who cant even fit one whole hand on my 14 inch laptop screen).
so ... Apple equivalent of HP touch smart?
not unthinkable...
@M C: Maybe you missed the point. Microsoft already has a patent on this, regardless of which devices it is or isn't in.
This is a bit off topic, but you know what I love about the iphone? That little sig at the end of the email:
Sent from my iphone
When someone receives my email on their WinMo/Android/Blackberry/POS phone it's like saying: You suck, peasant. Here let me step on your stupid head in the mud as I answer my call on my shiny iphone. You wish you had one, loser.
*Nobody feed this man*
I'm pretty sure it's RIM that started this with the Blackberry.
It's more like saying "I'm a douche bag"
i am an apple fanboi; but you sir, you must meet your maker to save us the trouble of reading your stupid posts.
Obvious troll is obvious.
It's also saying, I pay $30 dollars a month extra for features I don't need.
@CyberGray:
...And for looks over function.
Maemo5 N900.
The End.
Ahhh no. It was the first thing I removed from my iPhone cause it's freakin dumb and simply uses noobs for marketing.
Wait, the "sent from my iPhone" sigs are automatically generated by default? Wow, that's just stupid.
@arcticpenguins
so what you are saying then is this comment was sent from your iPhone?
Duuuddeeee your kiddin right?
Its just a bad joke, you cant be so dumb!
Dont worry everyone hes just jokin, its imposible to reach this level of azzholeeness if your not fakin.
Your Minority Report computing fantasies are inching ever closer to reality.
But in Minority Report they didn't have to touch a screen to manipulate the content.
"Your Minority Report computing fantasies are inching ever closer to reality."
Stupid comment system. This should have been in a Project Natal thread.
Can't they use Photoshop to make the images? Why does it have to be hand drawn?
The images were digitally made, not hand drawn. Look closer....even the pics in TFA are digital
and if you have sweaty palms you're going to be in trouble!
Or hairy ones...
so basically, wherever you lay your hands, you'll have a keyboard at your fingertips...
what if you don't follow the conventions of regular touch typing?
Very cool idea; hope it actually comes out sometime soon.
what about ms surface???
i guess the added palms is something even though surface will still read it as a point
Isn't this the same as the Microsoft Surface? Or how about any other multitouch surface tech?
I don't get what's so revolutionary about this patent.
Ah you see, it's by Apple.
*winks*
first, the surface is just cameras
second, it weighs 40 tons, and could never but 'put' into a mobile device
thirdly, if you've ever seen it in use, you know its not accurate (its janky as hell) for TYPING.. just pushing photos around a 20,000 dollars table (after multiple attempts)
@ mike: you mean i couldn't be put into a device like the Microsoft Courier (which uses Surface technology)?
Do you selectively skip over every article that discusses innovation by anyone other than Apple?
When I read it could sense both palms I got the image of somebody using a Microsoft Surface type.....surface sliding their entire hand across the thing and I couldn't stop laughing.
Apple is going to revolutionize the computing world. a little bit at a time. i can this tablet becoming quite an amazing tool that we predicted all wrong.
meh. Let's say this does work as "imagined." You can't navigate by touch ... as with a physical keyboard. So you have to use eyes and "hand parts" in order to make it do what it does. So you're already dumbed down by one. I happen to be reading the last 3 comments while I type this scurrilous prose. Down by one ... let's go for the goal line. So I have inputs and they're not only individual, they're collective and not only collective but positional and not only positional but gestural. And again, this is all without significant, individual tactile feedback. It's LESS trouble by far to key 60 wpm (no sweat, right?) than it would be to truly use "all 10 digits plus the palms." So the learning curve is going to be a total bitch in order to really learn how to make this thing sing ... no? This is why ad agencies get paid the big bucks to sell the dream ... the reality of such a device is playtoy/delusional wetdream/ubergeek technorgasm. And the 90% who might consider buying it? They're in the middle, sliding off to the playpen. So maybe it really doesn't matter, cuz I'm no ubergeek, coding mofo ... I'm just the guy who gets to say "look what I got."
>Still, a multitouch surface that recognizes all ten digits simultaneously?
Uh, there is nothing surprising about this. MS surface recognizes 52 touches at once and the mobile level Synaptics and 3M both make 10 finger capable products and have demoed them with windows 7.
can someone please answer me this?:
a few weeks ago Apple made a commercial at a Dinner in California and all the blogs were talking about it because it was for a new secret project. What happened to this commercial? it is not one that we have seen yet. Maybe this is for the tablet??
Apple is copying Microsoft again:
http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=8236
ummm Apple's patent was made before Microsofts!
@Aaron
actually, you are wrong. If you had bothered to read the wmpoweruser article, you would have realize Microsoft ALREADY patented their version of the technology, before Apple.
And now you are wrong. I read the article. This apple patent is just 1 of many regarding touch interface and Apple was the first to patent this. Do some research! I am not even and Apple fan I just hate it when people get their facts wrong.
Ahhh... how I wished to be young again with all this anger and self-opinionated feelings.
I'm not young and yet I have enough anger to take out entire room of iTards within 5 minutes. Hit the lights and start swinging away. Watch the iTards start screaming for their God: Steve Jobs. Save us Mr Jobs. We promise to buy your next Apple TV revision!
I know with Microsofts patent the idea is they screen reads your palm postion and creates a touchsecreen keaybaord in a relative position. So the home row finds your fingers. The only problem with touchscreen keaboards is that you have to anyway to feel for postion to ensure four fingers are on the home row without looking, Microsft's patent will fix this problem,
This....... This is something completely useless.
Age old story, MS invents the wheel, then everyone want to through a parade for apple when whey reinvent the wheel. An overpriced wheel that wobbles.
@ WindowsFTW, ok off topic for one sec. Winmo 6.5. I don't understand. looking at the windows7, the ZuneHD. Are you telling me you think winmo sets up there as one microsofts finest. especially with all the other Mobile OS's Android, Maemo5, WebOS, and that other one...oh yea Moblin