New MacBook Pros still overheating due to misapplied thermal grease?

Reports of MacBook Pros getting crazy-hot because of misapplied thermal grease have been floating around for a year now, and it doesn't look like the recent bump to Santa Rosa has changed anything. A reader at the MacRumors forums noticed his week-old MBP getting a little hot, so he bravely decided to pull the unit apart to check things out and found what he estimated to be forty times too much paste applied to the logic board. There are also a few threads on the Apple support site with similar pics of MBP logic boards slathered in grease, so this doesn't appear to be an isolated issue. Apple hasn't commented yet, but seeing as it managed to cool things down last time with a firmware update, we wouldn't expect too much fanfare when this finally gets resolved.

Read - MacRumors thread
Read - Apple Discussions thread

[_man1c_ @ Jun 20th 2007 9:46PM]

just a dabb of that stuff is needed. yeesh.

[Jon @ Jun 20th 2007 10:01PM]

Sweet jesus, that plenty of thermal paste is just scary! Anyone knows which company assembles these laptops for Apple? I would avoid buying any notebook models coming from them.

[Juaquin @ Jun 20th 2007 10:10PM]

Too much thermal paste will not cause significant overheating. Really, you can apply as much as you want since any excess will just be squeezed out when the heatsink is tightened onto the processor. Just make sure it doesn't contact the mobo and cause a short. I've done countless PC builds and I apply a liberal (but not huge) amount of grease - never had high temps. Go find something else to blame it on - perhaps cramming high-powered components in small places just naturally leads to a lot of heat? Or maybe I'm crazy.

[John Doe @ Jun 20th 2007 10:30PM]

Juaquin,

Just because you squeezed it out doesn't mean the remaining amount isn't thicker then it should be. There should be so little paste between the two that its pretty much a film then anything else. When you look at the above picture it isn't a coating its a caking.
And just because you have never had an issue doesn't mean there isn't one. My guess is you have never repaired a laptop. I do Dell warranty repairs and replace about 6-10 laptop motherboards\CPUs per week. In many cases the reasoning is simple. The system overheats and turns off. About 30% of my calls can be rectified by simply scraping off the paste and reapplying it and viola. No need to replace the board or CPU.
What people like you fail to understand is laptop run in a very narrow thermal window. Something as simple as thermal paste can restrict the heat from flowing out of the CPU, even if its as much as a few degrees, and as such causes overheats.
Your little "I know how this works" speech is about as relevant as someone who works on semis coming onto a crotch rocket forum and giving advice. The two are worlds apart.

[Sean D. @ Jun 20th 2007 10:55PM]

Juaquin,

The thermal paste is a medium to allow the heatsink (or heatpipe) to maximize surface-area contact with the processor die. It fills in caps and seals any microscopic cracks that might exist in either the surface of the processor or the contact point on the heatsink. In order to be effective at all, thermal paste has to be a heat conductor itself so that it can allow the transmission of heat between the processor and the heatsink.

The photo at the top of this article is a good example of how not to apply thermal paste. You see all that paste slathered along the sides of the die? The heatsink will not touch that paste, trapping heat exactly where you don't want it- right next to the processor.

The MacBook Pros do get really hot. A friend of mine was even trying to convince me that they get so hot because Apple designed the case to act as a giant heatsink to get the heat out of the system. Funny that my HP notebook has pretty much the same specs as his MBP and runs 10 degrees C cooler! I told him months about the thermal paste issue, but he also refuses to believe that Apple would send him a less than perfect system. Whatever...

[Juaquin @ Jun 21st 2007 2:13AM]

@Sean D.

Thanks for pointing that out - I hadn't considered the pool of thermal paste trapping heat away from the heatsink. To clarify, I wasn't advocating just slathering it on, I'm just saying that a little extra normally isn't a huge problem. I did not say that the level on the picture was acceptable - that's obviously too much. I'm also not trying to be an Apple fanboy - I don't own one myself, nor do I think that highly of them. I'd also like to thank you for replying in a civilized manner - I'm not sure why some people get so riled up about things as insignificant as thermal paste.

[Tim Buckingham @ Jun 20th 2007 10:22PM]

@Juaquin

You really don't know what you're talking about. Applying too much thermal paste keeps the heat sitting around in the thermal paste on areas not connected to the heat pipe. It reduces the overall efficiency of the heat pipe transfer and makes it so the fans don't do their job of getting that hot air out.

PC builds are not the same as laptop builds. So yes, you're crazy.

Those of us that dealt (and are now dealing) with this thermal paste issue and did the clean-up job know how much of a difference it makes to have the paste applied correctly.

[Josh @ Jun 20th 2007 10:22PM]

This can't be true. It must be those Anti-Apple people coming up with another lie. Will the lie machine ever stop? Apple hand builds these and always does everything properly. This is not excessive thermal paste. Its an added feature. Steve wanted to make sure that if you ever had to replace any thermal paste that you had some there - inside the machine - where its needed. Also, as an added benefit -- Apple is aware that its notebook users are en route somewhere else typically -- either in a plane or on a subway or something -- so this notebooks heats up just hot enough to fry an egg or two, heat up a hot pocket - or, if you are really creative -- use some of the excess thermal grease to fry up something - like, some french fries or perhaps an "Apple Pie" or two.

[drtekger @ Jun 21st 2007 1:24AM]

It's "freedom fries"

[michael @ Jun 20th 2007 10:30PM]

I know this sounds kinda stupid, but at first look, the photo of this post kind of looks like a stadium on a grassy turf, surround by lots of buildings.

I just wanted to point that out, since it looked so weird.

[John Doe @ Jun 20th 2007 10:36PM]

Watch Hackers sometime.

[derek @ Jun 20th 2007 10:39PM]

you either need a new screen, or you need to stop smoking pot

[drtekger @ Jun 21st 2007 1:26AM]

Whatever you are on, get me some too!

[John Doe @ Jun 20th 2007 10:35PM]

Apple's hardware really is for shit. (Vs. being the shit.) I say that as a person who has a C2D MBP and won't be owning another.

The entire QA team, if there is one, should be outright fired. Ditto with the QA team who deal with their OS as well. For a company with those kinds of profits they are NOT doing that good of a job.

[Ted Brown @ Jun 20th 2007 10:39PM]

Do the regular Macbooks have this problem? I'm thinking of getting one in a few months and would like to know if I need to do this myself.

[derek @ Jun 20th 2007 10:44PM]

John, Apple didn't make this, some other company did.

@Ted
Nope, they don't

[John Doe @ Jun 21st 2007 12:39AM]

derek ,

It is APPLE responsibility to assure that the products being created for them meet X quality. This is no different then any other company that has a third party manufacturer create their wares be it Dell, Creative, Gateway or anyone else. At the end of the day its Apple responsibility and Apple's fault.

Oh and as for the people who voted down my post. Truth hurts doesn't it fanbois?

[Matt @ Jun 20th 2007 10:42PM]

I still don't get the argument here. From a basic thermodynamics pov, where does one thing the heat goes if there is less paste? If too much paste mean the heat is transmitted to the case, doesn't that mean the past is effective? If then a thin spread of paste makes the case cool, where is that heat going? I'll assure you the CPU is generating it.

[Chris @ Jun 20th 2007 11:01PM]

Matt, when the thermal transfer is impeded by a layer of paste that is too thick, the heat never makes it to the thermal sensor and the fans don't know it's time to turn on. That's besides the fact that the efficiency of heat removal is reduced by the increased resistance. The only job of the paste is to fill the microscopic imperfections in the 2 surfaces. A thicker layer puts more separation between the two metal surfaces, which conduct heat much more effectively than the paste does. Keep in mind that Apple is probably not using good thermal paste so it's even less conductive than the good stuff you can get at CompUSA.

[Khisanthus @ Jun 20th 2007 11:01PM]

You question assumes a falsehood. It is not thermodynamics at play here. It is kinetics. More to the point, heat flux. Simply putting a radiator on the cpu won't work because both components aren't perfectly flat. The thermal paste serves only ONE function: make continuous thermal contact between the source (cpu etc.) and the sink (radiator, water pipes, whatever). Too little, and the surface area is not completely covered. Fast heat dissipation requires high flux with a cold sink. A way to do this is to increase surface area as with a radiator. Too much paste reduces the surface area to volume ratio which lowers the specified heat dissipation capacity.

[Chris @ Jun 20th 2007 11:08PM]

By the way, I'm one affected by this. I VERY carefully reapplied the thermal paste on my MacBook Pro and it made a HUGE difference. The fans started coming on when they are supposed to and I could finally use the laptop on my lap!

[Ken @ Jun 22nd 2007 12:59PM]

Another point people seem to leave out.

Thermal conductivity can be represented by watts/(meter * degree kelvin). Thermal paste usually has a thermal conductivity around 8 or 9 w/mk. Even Arctic Silver only gets up to around 10. here are some conductivities of materials to give you a point of reference.

Aluminum (6063-T4):
200 w/mk

Gold:
301 w/mk

Copper:
385 w/mk

Silver:
419 w/mk

Diamond:
2000 w/mk

Keeping the gaps of the joints filled is the only purpose of thermal grease. If too much is applied, it can exponentially increase the resistivity of the joint.

[Matt @ Jun 22nd 2007 1:49PM]

Go, go Engadgeteers! That's what I call some responses. Real flippin science. Thanks to all. Crystal clear now.

Now, how do i get a heat sink made of Diamonds?

[ryanwalklin @ Jun 20th 2007 10:43PM]

So apart from a few forum pics, is there any evidence that the Santa Rosa MBPs are actually overheating? By overheating I mean that they need to shut down or underclock to avoid processor damage.

I say this only because I'm posting from my 2.4ghz Santa Rosa MBP while running WoW at max settings in 1440x900 and transcoding a DVD with Handbrake. Both cores are at 100%, and the CPU and GPU are at 75 degrees via iStat nano.
However, both fans are on, the temperature is stable, and most importantly, the bottom enclosure temp is a comfortable 43 degrees (celcius you imperial system hicks (;) - just kidding).

Anyway long story short, my MBP isnt overheating under maximum load, and if you're going to void your warranty on a brand new $4g laptop just because you subjectively think it's running too hot, you're an idiot.

[Sean D. @ Jun 20th 2007 11:08PM]

$4G, huh? I hope that price included a 30" monitor?

You'll only void your warranty if you break something while you're in there. Just find an online disassembly guide, pay attention to what you're doing, and you'll be fine.

75 degrees isn't the worst I've heard of, but it's still pretty high for a C2D, even at 100% load.

[chem @ Jun 20th 2007 11:25PM]

Well, reading the comments in the macrumors and apple links, quite a few people with the new Santa Rosa MBP are reporting CPU temps under load significantly higher (85C, 95C) than the 75C you reported. It is quite possible that your MBP is a 'good apple' as opposed to a 'bad apple.' 75C under load seems reasonable; what the people with pictures were reporting was much hotter, and re-applying their thermal paste gave ~15C improvement under load.

[Gennove @ Jun 20th 2007 10:51PM]

Anyway long story short, my MBP isnt overheating under maximum load, and if you're going to void your warranty on a brand new $4g laptop just because you subjectively think it's running too hot, you're an idiot.

Well if you paid $4g for a MBP then I dont know who is dumber, the person voiding the warranty or you for paying that much for the laptop.

[ryanwalklin @ Jun 20th 2007 11:13PM]

My point was that the hardware is: a. Fine. b. Worth $4g (NZ dollars btw, 3ish grand US), and c. Regardless of the OP's "System Admin" and "Leet Haxx0r" credentials, I doubt he can design and build a laptop with greater thermal efficiency than Intel, Apple and Foxconn put together.

[andrew harrison @ Jun 21st 2007 12:13AM]

"Well if you paid $4g for a MBP then I dont know who is dumber, the person voiding the warranty or you for paying that much for the laptop."

probably the person that assumed it was USD, despite the OP stating his temperature readings in Celsius.

[ryanwalklin @ Jun 20th 2007 11:37PM]

That's actually a very good point. Unfortunately, since it's always the vocal majority of people who complain about these things, they get all the airtime, rather than the silent majority who have "Good Apples."

There seems to be some confusion about temps that actually matter, CPU temp is fine as long as it's under the hard(ware) cutoff of 100 degrees C, when the system shuts down. What is of far more interest I would have thought was the "Bottom Enclosure" (ie the temp your thighs and other sensitive bits are exposed to), which is around 30 degrees at idle and 50 degrees during heavy gaming for my system at least.

Still, surely if you have a machine which is truly overheating, it's a better idea to take advantage of your warranty rather than void it?

[spence @ Jun 20th 2007 11:35PM]

Thermal grease is like lube: You can never have too much.

[Richard Lai @ Jun 21st 2007 12:00AM]

Stupid Quanta machines don't know how much grease to add. I say let Asustek do the job.

[Richard Lai @ Jun 21st 2007 12:00AM]

Stupid Quanta machines don't know how much grease to add. I say let Asustek do the job.

[Richard Lai @ Jun 21st 2007 12:01AM]

Whoops, sorry, wrong reply.

But anyway, gotta love the lube. You can never use too much, no harm done.

[Brian @ Jun 20th 2007 11:55PM]

Thats pretty bad, when my xbox360 died on me a while back I opened it up and saw a even more thermal paste than that on the cpu. It was also slathered all over the surrounding resistors on the chip package. Shame on these manufacturers.

[chalk @ Jun 20th 2007 11:58PM]

I have a brand new 17" SR MBP HD 7200 and while it is plugged in, all I have to do is start watching a video and the fans kick up to 6000 RPM.

I wonder if this is contributing?

[jm @ Jun 21st 2007 12:37AM]

As an apple genius I suggest adding thermal grease to your fans to cut down on the noise, remember you can never have enough thermal paste. Additionaly injecting thermal grease in your ear canals will cure all other bothersome noise issues and virtually eliminate the sounds of annoying winblow$ fanboi's. A

Little known fact Apple thermal grease when taken orally in large amounts has also been known to induce altered states of consciouness frequently including vivid, highly erotic steve jobs hallucinations. Something any true apple fan must experience at least once.

[Chuckles McGee @ Jun 21st 2007 12:26AM]

Ohhhhh, the Apple boys confused the thermal grease with the personal lubricant. No wonder the thing was overheating.

[suntiger @ Jun 21st 2007 2:04AM]

Even if that was personal lubricant, it might be too much...

[Noga Rosenthal @ Jun 21st 2007 12:37AM]

I'm not sure how too much paste will cause overheating... The paste itself is a heat conductor. The heat will still be transfered to the fan (or other cooling device). Anyways, it should be designed to not overheat without any thermal paste, as most builders won't apply any.

- Noga Rosenthal

[Richard Lai @ Jun 21st 2007 1:44AM]

Although it is a heat conductor, it is not the best conductor as it also needs the greasy property in order to fill the gaps, which is its only job, therefore the most effective heat transfer is to have minimal paste between the chip and the heatsink.

[Neal @ Jun 21st 2007 2:59PM]

If the paste were as good a conductor so that the amount used didn't matter, why would you even use a heatsink? Just slather a ton on it and call it good right?

As others have stated, you need only a thin film to fill in the tiny imperfections to encourage as much heat transfer away from the CPU to the heat sink as possible. Too much paste makes it more of an insulator than a conductor.

[JAmerican @ Jun 21st 2007 1:50AM]

Same issue with the Xbox 360 except that the MacBooks have no X-clamp crap.

JAmerican

[Doctor Memory @ Jun 21st 2007 2:44AM]

The last time this issue flared up (flared -- I kill myself), it turned out that the actual written-by-Intel service manuals said that the amount of grease on the MBPs was just fine, thank you very much. It didn't stop the self-appointed "computer enthusiast" experts from claiming that they knew better than the actual engineers, and apparently it's not going to this time either.

[Chris25 @ Jun 21st 2007 3:37AM]

Think my friend. Intell will never tell that Apple is doing smh bad because they're buing their procs. Again -stupid commentator - some of these enthusiast ARE ENGINEERS and they know about their work better than "marketing proper annoucment from Intel".

[Syndication @ Jun 21st 2007 3:47AM]

Maybe because those actual engineers aren't building the laptops and outsourcing the building to third party companies? That much thermal paste may be "in spec" for what intel claims, but don't you forget that engineers don't build things to last anymore, they build things to be obsolete. If your macbook pro becomes hot as hell, the hardware won't last as long, and well you guessed it, time to purchase a new mac!

I would say self appointed "computer enthusiasts" know more about cooling than some of the engineers on some of these projects. It's only recently that you've seen watercooling kits available for brand name vendors lately when DIYers were doing that stuff ages before brands caught on.

Innovation doesn't necessarily require a degree.

It's also "in spec" to have a certain number of dead pixels on lcd screens, but to me that's not acceptable, neither is the gobbing on of thermal grease.

[Supremus @ Jun 21st 2007 2:47PM]

Tell me about it. As a first time MAC user who just moved to macbook pro, this heating issue has not been pleasant at all. This damned thing gets so hot, its good enough to cook up an omlette!!
I hope Apple fixes these issues soon.

[Ice Cold @ Jun 21st 2007 3:16PM]

Thermal Paste Bukkake!

[jabber_wolf @ Jun 21st 2007 3:20PM]

EWWWWWW Greasy Apples!!!

Nah, Apple won't fix this anytime soon, they will just tell you to buy their NEW equipment or a new iphone with a battery that doesn't last long so you have to buy a NEW one of those too!

Such innovation , you will ALWAYS have to continuously buy new Apple products!! ;)

[UltraNEO* @ Jun 21st 2007 8:55PM]

Hey fuckers, how about asking for permission before you use MY PHOTO on your article? Didn't your mother fucker teach you anything when you was a little bastard?

http://flickr.com/photos/ultraneo/583556675/