It doesn't come as a surprise that Sony and Microsoft are hard at work at motion controls for their respective consoles: Nintendo is eating their lunch. The Wii's incredible appeal with the average consumer -- due primarily to the accessibility and charm of its Wiimote motion controls -- has also created an annoying divide in the industry (real or perceived) between consumers who use embarrassing gestures to control meaningless mini-games, and those who memorize incredibly complex control schemes to control deeper and more "mature" experiences. There's been a small amount of crossover, of course, but since Sony and Microsoft have lacked most of the gestures option, a majority of it has taken place on the Wii -- the inclusion of an accelerometer in Sony's Sixaxis controller has had little impact on gameplay, and Sony's EyeToy 2 has had even less impact on the average gamer.
Of course, that's all about to change next year, with the emergence of the Microsoft's
Project Natal and Sony's
PlayStation motion controller. Typical thinking would suggest that Sony and Microsoft will be attempting to capture a slice of the casual gaming market that the Wii has so well dominated, while also expanding on the Wii's capabilities at serving the hardcore gamer -- some capabilities which Nintendo itself is attempting to add to the Wii with the even more imminent MotionPlus add-on. So, does anyone here have what it takes to serve up the next generation of gaming controls to everybody, or do cost considerations and the current state of the console wars dictate an ongoing rift in the market? Let's weigh our options...
Wii MotionPlusLaunch date: June 8th
Price: $20 add-on per controller
Current install base: 51 million
Console base price: $250
While Sony and Microsoft are getting all the press this week, it's actually Nintendo that's the closest chronologically to improving upon its existing motion control capabilities.
The new MotionPlus add-on adds gyroscope sensing on the X and Y axis to supplement the data the Wii already gleans from accelerometers and the sensor bar. It gives the Wiimote substantially more information about its placement in space, but it's not going to provide perfect 1:1 data -- developers will still need to decide the best way to use this extra info, and build software to simulate 1:1 as they choose. Nintendo, for instance, provides 1:1 motion in its Wii Sports Resort sword fighting game, but to perform blocks correctly, users still need to use the B button. In Ubisoft's Red Steel 2, gun implementation is the same as it was for the original, and while sword play is much improved, there's still a hint of slashes being "interpreted" into particular motions, instead of every motion being perfectly reflected on screen. EA has
also claimed it was necessary to "tone down" 1:1 responsiveness to amp up playability.
Our own feel from a brief time playing with MotionPlus was that we could certainly sense an improvement in accuracy and real-life motion, but the games we tried didn't really show it to be a killer feature, or substantially "immersive" enough to justify the upgrade.
Xbox 360 Project NatalLaunch date: TBD, rumored late 2010
Price: TBD, one needed per console
Current install base: 30 million
Console base price: $200
Microsoft said it loud and clear on stage at E3: "This isn't the kind of game you end up on the sofa using some kind of preset waggle commands." It's true, Project Natal really couldn't be further from the Wii when it comes to motion controls. Instead of representing potentially arbitrary controller motions and gestures, Microsoft has its sights set on capturing the motion of the entire body. The technology is certainly impressive, combining an infrared camera and traditional camera to capture motion and 3D location in with glorious resolution and responsiveness -- from furious full body flailing to the subtle motion of an imaginary steering wheel, gas pedal and gear shifter. Microsoft's demos with in-house games show an on-screen avatar that closely mimics your own motions, which seems just a little odd in practice: it's 1:1 movement being represented on screen, but it's still arbitrary in a sense, since the avatar is being moved in a virtual environment. It's more like controlling a really detailed puppet than "being there" -- though this is obviously based on the implementation, since the driving example is very immersive.
Our problems with the tech, however, are twofold. Microsoft was kind enough to point out that you won't "end up on the sofa" for a lot of this. While we're glad Microsoft is doing its part to fight childhood (and adulthood) obesity, we actually really appreciate the option with the Wii to play one game of bowling standing up in a mode of full-on simulation, and one bowling game sprawled out on the couch, making as little effort as possible. We're sure there will be plenty of low-impact games available, but just to get an idea of where we're coming from: the delicate arm waves Microsoft's demo couple demonstrated when shuffling through a Netflix queue did not look like a delightful way to spend an evening. The other problem is with the idea of arbitrary controls. Most of what we do in video games are precisely the things we
can't do in our living room. We're sure Microsoft is hard at work at this problem, but our fear is that we'll end up trading arbitrary Wiimote gestures when piloting a robo-mech tasked with eradicating laser-equipped dinosaurs from the moon, with arbitrary "body gestures" that will feel just as fake and a whole lot more tiring. Our biggest concern: how do you work a FPS? Of the options of either buying an extra gun-simulation accessory for Natal to interact with, using a regular 360 controller in a shooter stance, or making imaginary guns with our fingers, we can't decide which is the least desirable. Chatting with Milo, however,
sounds like a real treat.
Check out our hands-on look at Natal
here.
PlayStation motion controller Launch date: Spring 2010
Price: TBD, needs PlayStation Eye ($40) and a new controller per person
Current install base: 23 million
Console base price: $400
Rarely a one for compromise, it's rather odd that Sony has ended up striking a bit of a balance between Nintendo and Microsoft in this space. Its new "PlayStation motion controller," which appeared fairly early along in the development process in comparison to the competition, though it will theoretically launch before Natal, combines a Wiimote-like peripheral with Sony's existing
PlayStation Eye camera. As far as we can tell, most of the tracking takes place between the camera and the magical glowing ball at the end of the controller (which changes colors for particular actions). There also might be some accelerometers and gyroscopes on the inside, along with buttons on the face of the controller and an analog trigger -- making this an odd amalgamation of a Wiimote, a Natal-style camera-based tracking system and a traditional controller.
The upshot is that the controller has some of the benefits of Natal's "perfect" 1:1 tracking in real space, along with a traditional controller's capabilities to map arbitrary actions to buttons. Sony mentioned, for instance, that there isn't much of a substitute for a trigger button when it comes to shooting a gun virtually. The downside, naturally, is that the system appears limited to basically tracking two points in space per person -- one controller in each hand -- while Project Natal is tracking 48 joint points on the body, from head to toe. With a camera-based controller, we also fear Sony might suffer slightly when it comes to more arbitrary motions. It's a whole different story when moving around in an epic video game as opposed to moving around in a virtually-represented living room. Again, we're sure this is something Sony is aware of and working on, but it's something that Nintendo's waggle has down pat -- for better or worse.
The elephant in the room here, of course, is that Sony already has an iPhone-style accelerometer in its existing PS3 controllers. Unfortunately, the lack of a Wii sensor bar-style frame of reference for the controller, along with horrible implementation in the majority of games that use it for anything more than a quick shake now and then, mean that it was hardly surprising that Sony completely failed to mention
Sixaxis during its presentation.
Other controllersThis isn't the main thrust of this article, but it's worth noting that the number of game-specific accessories has skyrocketed of late, with
Rock Band,
Guitar Hero,
DJ Hero,
Wii Fit and now even
Tony Hawk all involving a specific controller for game play. Many of the inputs they provide (like weight and precise button mashing) aren't accurately reproduced by any of these other methods, and they show some of the limitations involved in building any sort of catch-all motion control system.
Of the three, however, Project Natal seems best suited to working alongside and augmenting existing control schemes -- tracking your general body movements while a guitar controller tracks your fingers, for instance, or measuring your arm flails while the Tony Hawk controller picks up the subtleties of your virtual kickflips. Sony has the opportunity to do this to a lesser extent with the PlayStation Eye, and the Wiimote has already been implemented to some extent in conjunction with other controllers.
Hardware to back it all upDevelopers will probably be looking at two main things when it comes developing their titles for motion controls: how many people have it, and what can they do with it. While Nintendo would argue that the only place where truly "next-gen" gameplay is happening right now is on the Wii, it's clear that expansive worlds, involved storylines, online multiplayer and (especially) high end graphics are much more traditionally associated with the PS3 and Xbox 360. Several games have even had "lite" editions built for the Wii, which really demonstrates the rift between the types of consoles.
The opportunity is certainly there for developers to build something
extra next-gen with the blend of modern hardware and advanced motion controls, but the higher development costs on the Xbox 360 and PS3 discourage experimentation. Mix in the fact that neither console is shipping with these new motion controls currently, and potentially slow adoption once they start, and there's very little incentive out of the gate for a developer to design a truly blockbuster title around these new peripherals. Nintendo has had good results in selling its Wii Fit controller, and it seems imperative that Nintendo and Sony build some amazing first party experiences to make these motion controllers must have items.
Our greatest hope for third parties out of the gate is that there will be some easy to implement "alternative controls" that developers will be able to tack on to traditional titles (Microsoft showed us some racing controls that give us great hope in this department, and Sony seems dead set on the FPS and RTS space), but it seems likely that we're a few years or perhaps even another console generation from a real fulfillment of all this technology in a truly great game. Our mini-game experience index, however, is likely to skyrocket in the near term.
Wrap-upThe scary thought, for Microsoft and Sony at least, is that like Sony's PlayStation Eye experiments in the past (Sony even goes so far as to call the PS2 EyeToy its "first" motion controller), this new functionality could be ignored by the general public and leave both manufacturers without a compelling presence in the casual market. It all comes down to games, and it'll be important for both technologies to sell at a reasonable price, come bundled with really compelling casual gameplay out of the box, and then to get strong third party developer support in the long run -- the last of which Nintendo is still struggling with in some ways.
As odd as it seems, it's hard to say anybody has a real edge right now. Nintendo is quite obviously winning financially, has the most units on the market, and also in some sense pioneered this space -- how many times did you and your parents pretend to play tennis against each other in the living room before the Wii came along? -- but as far as who will deliver the best and most immersive gaming experience this generation, it's still up in the air. In many ways you could claim the community and connectivity pioneered by Xbox Live has done more for progressing the industry than the Wii's waggle, but any way you slice this wild, cutthroat, three-pronged competition, we'd say the consumer is winning.
Further viewing While words are great, the best way to get a sense for these various technologies is to see them in action, so we've embedded a few videos below to give you an idea of what we're talking about.
PlayStation motion controller
Project Natal
MotionPlus
Mysterious "glove" tech from unknown manufacturer
posted Jun 5th 2009 11:02AM
Natal has the ability to do everything the Wii, and Sony wand can do. It uses your whole body even face and fingers to play games. Its a clear winner IMO.
They better come up with a better name than the 'wand' - I will never get used to saying Sony Wand
expelliarmus!
Natal had some trouble picking up advanced things on stage and Milo was merely a video and not yet a reality, Natal also won't be available for quite some time. Sony's motion controls are out to developers right now and they were demonstrated to be working on stage live right now, and will be available early next year. Sony has the edge right now. I really hope Natal comes true but as of right now it's not entirely real.
Natal hasn't proven that it can accurately track small movements that the Wii handles with the Wii Remote's 3 axis accelerometer.
Little things like the angle in which you are tilting the controller. The tech demos so far at E3 show very big movements of arms and legs. Moving both arms for steering. Making a big motion to change the tire. It has proven it can track on a macro level the motion of your whole body, but can it do, for example, the Warioware Smooth Moves games where you try to keep balance of a virtual broom balanced on your palm with just the slightest angle of your wrist?
The wii remote also allows for pointing a cursor at the screen. Can Natal do that?
Kotaku proves Natal can track fingers in their latest article. http://kotaku.com/5279531/microsoft-project-natal-can-support-multiple-players-see-fingers"
Even Engadget had time with it. Milo is a game coming out by Lionhead. Its a reality. Multiple game sites have tried it.
@ mattergenocide
I think you've minimized both what Natal is capable of today and how far along in development it is.
"Milo was merely a video and not yet a reality"
- No, Milo was real and demonstrated – you can find reviews all over the web, but it’s just in the early stages of development. Is Milo really a game though or just more of a tech demo?
"Natal also won't be available for quite some time. Sony's motion controls are out to developers right now and they were demonstrated to be working on stage live right now, and will be available early next year."
- Both Natal and Sony's wand were demonstrated to be working on stage, and both are in developers’ hands as of E3. The only thing different about them is Sony claimed that their wand would be out in 2010 and MS has not given a date. We all know Sony's track record with their dates so I wouldn't bank on them getting it out next year, much less "early next year". By MS not giving a release date it does not indicate that they will not release it "for quite some time", they may release it next year as well. Being that Natal is much more advanced and software development heavy than the wand, it should be expected that the wand would be released first.
Natal is a game changer, that can't be said about the wand. To get the advantages of the wand, you need to buy at least 1 for each player, and likely 2. If you want to track leg and feet movement then you are talking about 3 or 4 wands per person. With Natal, there are no additional accessories to buy no matter how many players or movement points they want to track, no controllers to lose, and jumble of controllers to have to keep charged up (other than the standard controller). Natal is going to augment control for most regular games and will I'm sure they will make Nintendo type kid games (bowling, etc) that will work completely with Natal and no other controller required. But imagine playing halo and using the regular controller for shooting and moving but also being able to kick your leg up to jump or making a tossing gesture with your fist to throw a grenade. Or imagine watching a movie or TV on media center and having it pause automatically when you walk out of the room to use the bathroom or get a drink. The implications of Natal go way beyond just game control.
Here's a link to the Milo demo experienced by IGN:
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/991/991348p1.html
One thing to bring up is that I think Microsoft is not introducing Natal to replace the 360 controller... it's being develop to provide new experiences that would be better done with motion/voice/facial tracking. You're still going to get Halo, COD, etc that uses the regular controller but now you're also going to be able to play games like Fight Night by using ur hands and seeing an outline of yourself (ala Punch out style) on the screen. The fact is the 360 already has a controller (which is a great one except for the d-pad) so developers won't be forced to implement Natal "gimmicks" into their games.
For the media/entertainment people, you'll now be able to sit down on your couch and be logged into your profile automatically because Natal recognizes the face tied to your online profile. You'll be able to say "Pull up video chat with [FriendGamertag]" and Natal will launch the video chat app already on the NXE. You'll be able to use your hands (minority report syle) to browse thru an NXE experience tailored to work with Natal.
For the non-"traditional" gamer, you'll be able to easily pick up games that allow you to use your hands, arms, and feet "naturally" to control games that are specifically made for Natal.
Personally, I have to say I'm pretty interested in seeing the final product.
I disagree(even though it was your opinion:P); I think sony has the upper hand here, most of the fabulousness of natal is down to it's software and how it uses the camera information it gets is interpreted. As seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFN8cW1mSVY sony can do the same type of stuff with the PSeye, albeit with slightly less accuracy (I assume) than natal due to the lack of an IR camera (though this wouldn't change the accuracy huge amounts, but would make it struggle with telling the difference between a person and the backdrop if they blended in)
So yeah, that's how I interpret the situation, feel free to (validly) correct my comments :)
Kotaku didn't prove or demonstrate finger detection...it's right there in the article YOU linked to. Did you not read it before posting it as proof to something you got wrong? He says it THEORETICALLY could work but they couldn't prove it to him.
The main tech behind Natal seems to be a camera and IR. Thing is the PS Eye includes both of these as well. The Eye uses IR to hone in on who is playing so that it doesnt pick up people walking behind you. I believe all that is setting Natal apart from PS Eye is the software.
Sony needs to put out tools just like M$ is doing so things such as facial tracking and recognition can be done in any game.
And I think having a mix is the way to go because I've wanted next gen Wii controls on a next gen system ever since the Wii was announced. Plus Sony has been talking about this stuff since 2004. If the wands are released as a Dual Shock 3 split in half then it will be the winner. Then youd be able to play any game but with everything else added.
You... just totally disregarded the entire article. The point was that Natal could do everything tracking-wise that everyone else's could do, but that since there is no controller native to the system, it is at a disadvantage when traditional controls need to be used. Now, they could fix this by allowing you to use the 360 controller, but as of now...
On the subject of finger detection, here's a video with 3DV (the company MS acquired) demo'ing there tech (it has some finger direction detection going on):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkleQLjASyU
So it's possible that since they work for MS now that there work could be combined with what Natal is already doing.
I take back my comment. The Eye has an infrared filter that actually keeps it from messing with the camera. I'm guessing that's why they're using the colors on the wands just like they did back at E3 2006 with the colored cups.
I believe the big difference between Natal and the PSEye (version w/o the glowing controllers they demo'd at E3) is that:
1) Natal has it's on processor/software onboard the hardware
2) I don't believe the PSEye by itself can do depth tracking
I think #2 is a big factor when you see things like the Natal demo tied to Burnout paradise... yeah the PSEye could tracking the left/right movements of your arms/head but only Natal can use your feet to control your speed from you placing your feet forward and backwards. With the E3 demo of the girl kicking the balls around, the PSEye could probably tell whether or not to stop and incoming ball if your leg is in front of it, but without depth tracking you couldn't actually "kick" it because it doesn't know whether you leg is coming forwards or the amount of force you're trying to put behind it. You could moves your arms left and right with the PSEye but it couldn't track a lateral punch or push forward with being able to measure depth.
Also, it's interesting to note that Natal is "picking up 48 joint points on the human body" using it's two builtin cameras (RGB and infrared).
" sony can do the same type of stuff with the PSeye, albeit with slightly less accuracy "
Not really. Natal (which is a dumb name) utilizes two optical sensors placed apart to achieve stereoscopic vision - that achieves depth perception. With a single sensor (or single cluster of sensors) the image being processed lacks depth information, though some tricks can be done to try and guesstimate. MS has further expanded on the idea by making the sensors sensitive to different wavelengths, to provide further visual differentiation. It's a clever implementation. Sony is using the want to try and work around that limitation, by providing a second data collector. Largely I suspect this is because the algorithm for motion capture with distinct tracking points (the end of the wand for example) is mature and didn't require a lot of software innovations that need to be perfected and also because it is easier to interpret motion data from the wand and visual data from the camera, than visual data from two separate cameras. MS has the advantage here of having a multi-billion dollar research arm to leverage, relationships with a variety of academic research institutions, and the cash to snap up interesting companies. Sony has to go a less resource intensive route given their financials (MS may not be happy about not having revenue growth, but at least they made billions last quarter rather than losing money).
I totally agree that Natal will be the best tech. Reading through the article, they seem to think the Wii is going to be the dominant application for motion controls now and forever. I'd have to disagree considering the Wii is just an expensive board game only used during family events. It's minimal specs will never give it an advantage and Nintendo will most likely milk this platform dry, bad 3rd party games or not. Natal isn't JUST for controlling video games, so that argument is invalid. There are COUNTLESS applications for this technology so to isolate it to just video game control is ridiculous.
When I see the future, I don't want to be holding anything in my hands to control whats happening on screen. Not to say I don't want to use a controller at all, that should always be around. But Natal obviously looks like the future to me.
PS3 Motion Tracking will probably be more than just wand based.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/27/sonys-ps3-headtracking-does-it-all-with-a-camera/
Natal is definitely the coolest, but I still think you need some sort of physical controller. The perfect combination would be natal + 2 Sony wands. You need to be able to "point" something at the screen and pull a trigger... although you could probably technically do it with your fingers, it would be awkward. The option to either use no controller for certain games or use some sort of a remote combo in your hands for others would be perfect.
Casual / fitness games = Natal only
"Real games" = Controllers + natal
This seems to be another one of Sony's product that shows the most potential but probably won't ever live up to it all. The Playstation Eye has a mic on it. Sony could develop software similar to Natal's voice recognition and body recognition software and make games that are truly the best of both the xbox 360 and wii motion controls and then there would be no comparison. When that one guy demos natal on stage and signs in as an avatar, the avatar is glitching all over the place. If even on stage with a setup created by microsoft Natal still spazzes out, I don't see how it will work in my living room. I don't see how body-detection software could ever be perfected, especially with 4 people using it at once, for it seems as if it will always blend the bodies with the background and glitch out a little bit. That's why a controller is needed. Still, until Sony announced their wireless motion controllers in their press conference, natal almost made me think the format war was over and I should go out and buy an xbox 360.
If Sony can make some AAA games using their motion controllers and not make it end up like the eyetoy gimmick for the PS2 then I'd say Sony won. I want to see games like Resident Evil using the motion controllers. I couldn't ever imagine playing Resident Evil without a controller and just a camera. Too much room for glitches. There's no way to point and shoot. Background noise might mess up the voice recognition and think I'm saying "pause the game" and keep pausing. or maybe I am saying "pause the game" but the background noise is making it undetectable. If I just make a gun with my hand and have to make a reload gesture to reload then I could think of a ton of ways that would glitch out and be a nightmare. Natal is simply Microsoft's way to create a million mini-games that have sold so well on the Wii like mario party, cooking mama, and Wii sports. With Sony's two motion controllers with buttons I could see how they could make any great game as well as cheap little games. I could see Assassin's Creed using the motion controllers to climb up buildings and do hand-to-hand combat. You could use them in Grand Theft Auto to drive the car and then get out and shoot people. If they put an analog stick on each one of those wireless controllers then there's really no game they couldn't create with those controllers.
"Its new "PlayStation motion controller," which appeared fairly early along in the development process in comparison to the competition"
I don't see how you got that impression. Devs flat out said it was in development for months, and it seems far more accurate and less laggy than Natal which you omitted.
That and this very site has posted videos of PSeye doing everything Natal can do. Virtual mirrors, head tracking, soccer ball balancing demos, etc
Extinction, I think the fact that they showed no real games using the technology and admitted to not having a finalized design is reason enough to say that Sony is "fairly early along in the development process in comparison to the competition."
Microsoft has both those things and Nintendo ships theirs within weeks.
The big problem here with natal is that people keep talking about how col the driving demo was, but that and the kung fu game were CG, they were FAKED. They cant really be considered hardware demonstrations, they're just conspet sketches of what they'd like to pull of. While the kick ball game was interesting there's still some ways to go before you can race the indy 500 from your couch or fight Ryu in your living room as well as they suggest will be possible. This is why Sony's demonstration was more impressive. While similar to the wii it's still more accurate and a faster responding technology which if used the right way could produce games that not only carry the tradmark wii accessibility but also give the more serious gamer something interesting to play. Real 1:1 control? get freaking lucas on the phone and get us a damn online multiplayer light saber game, NOW. Try doing THAT with natal.
"Natal has the ability to do everything the Wii, and Sony wand can do. It uses your whole body even face and fingers to play games. Its a clear winner IMO."
yeah... except push down on a button/trigger...
I still think Natal needs a simple hand grip with buttons/analogue to complement their technology. It will raise the project's potential way beyond what it's currently capable of doing.
I mean, how do I move my character around? Do I stomp my feet? Run around my place? Voice commands? Just give us a simple controller to go with it.
you still use the normal controller if you want to
The normal one is too big for one hand.
That's what she said.
The regular controller works perfectly fine in one hand, unless you have really small hands, like child sized. I used to use it one handed to navigate when doing media stuff all the time until I picked up a Harmony remote.
1.NATAL 2. PS3 3.WII ....Project natal is full body detection ..the ps3 is a better version of the wii remote
I'm not sure that the PS3 will have an accurate on screen cursor like the Wii, plus the FREAKING HUGE BALL on the end is a bit of a problem. Also, as with anything for PS3, unless they come up with "Little Big Planet: Wand Warriors" it will integrate into boring useless games.
Boo Radley - they made it very clear that the current PS3 wand design is just an engineering prototype, as is the current Natal setup.
Right now Natal doesn't look like a sleek sensor bar, it's a little box that looks like a mini-projector (as revealed on this very website).
I'm undecided on who's going to come out on top, but the last thing we should be worried about is the physical appearance of prototypes that are nowhere near finished. Sony won't release a wand that clashes horribly with the visual aesthetic of the PS3 and all its other accessories.
How is the PS3 controller better than the Wii?, they already had 3 years to study how the controller works and came up with this? not to mention what are the planning to do with the Sixaxis? just throw it to the side like that? at least Microsoft knew it was too complex for them to design a compatitor and did the right thing and bought a company focused on this, and as a proof of concept this will make Nintendo get up and fight for control.
@Boo Radley
If you watch the demo of the PS3 'wand' you'll see that's it highly accurate, enabling the user to hand write quite effectively. I don't think handwriting on the PS3 will be much use to anyone but it proves the accuracy of it. When I've used a Wii in the past just trying to type on the virtual keyboard was hard.
Also, you go on to point out that PS3 games are useless. Aren't they all? I've not seen any productive games on any console at all except for perhaps Wii Fit.
I'm not taking any sides here. I think both the PS3 Wand and Natal look awesome. It'd be nice to see some proper gaming with the 'wand' rather than mock-up demos, and it'd be nice if Natal turns out exactly how it looks in the promo video. Talking of the Natal promo vid, how come the kids fingers aren't on the on-screen deck graphics once it's 'scanned' it?
Nintendo is probably loving this. The real reason why the Wii is still not getting support is that it is not competing with the PS3 or Xbox360, but both of them combined. Developers had the choice between developing for a 50-million install base for Wii or a 50-million install base for PS360. Now the HD console platform has been shattered. You can't develop a game on one system that works both for Natal and the Sony Wand. So now it's a competition between the 50-million install base Wii, the 30-million install base Xbox360 and the 20-million install base PS3. All third party motion games will still be going to the Wii.
If Microsoft and Sony wanted to be smart, then they would have made compatible systems so they could compete this generation. Differentiation will be their downfall.
PS3 Motion Tracking will probably be more than just wand based.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/27/sonys-ps3-headtracking-does-it-all-with-a-camera/
Some serious fanboy wars about to come our way...
A flame war would be irrelevant since all stuff it's still in the works, no matter what wild imagination geeks have. Not to mention the xbox360 and Sony teams need to be how to add this control method into hardcore games, since that's what people play on those consoles. Nintendo can pull it off because the demand for super complex gaming isn't in the wii, so all their gaming can handle motion without looking too shitty.
Looking into the future I think a mixture of Microsoft's solution with the wiimote plus would totally rock. Sony's idea seems to be pretty similar to what that young kids that liked hacking the Wiimote, I can remember his name but the did the led tracking thing, except it wasn't inside a giant plastic ball.
That's so bad
+9001
You beat me to it.
none, we care about games that uses controller well, not just a fancy controller
PS9
For the Wii;
All I want is Pokemon "Stadium" 3.
Battle Revolution was a joke compared to Pokemon Stadium 2.
Here, here!
Who will do it right next year? My money's on Nintendo... for sandbagging their news this year and holding back on whatever their next big hardware announcement is.
It's been reported in many an interview that at Nintendo they start working on the next iteration of hardware as soon as the current gets out the doors, so we know that they must have something that's been in the works for the last few years. Wii has been out awhile. Dsi is now out. It can't possibly take all their engineers to do the motion plus hardware, so I'd say it's a safe bet that their next home console is due to be revealed sooner than later. So, if they play the game right, at next year's E3, we'll see Sony and Microsoft proudly trumpeting the fact that they've finally released motion controllers, at which point Nintendo responds with a "so what, we've moved on to the new (whatever they're hiding now) interface/technology."
First post ever on Engadget & this is how I waist it...Are you that thick?
I thought the same thing after year one where nintendo was holding back, then it became year two, and now year three and the best thing i've heard is Metriod Prime. So basically other then its early releases they stuck me with a dust collector compared to my ps3 and xbox360 that i constantly buy games for. Nintendo played their get rich scheme to grab money from every kid and family they won't release anything good till their next console.
There is no way they would release a new console right now with the sales of the Wii. How many people all over the world would be sitting there with their new wii ready to burn down the Nintendo headquarters because the "new" console they just grabbed became obsolete for developers? 50 million angry customers created overnight doesn't seem like a risk they are stupid enough to take to me.
It's no different than any other time. They'll make the announcement and six months later something new will come out. People who don't read game magazines or tech blogs (a majority of the population) will be just as off-guard as ever.
I'm still confused with Project Natal. Most games require to move the character through maps. How will you do that? Run in place? Have the character navigate automatically?
You move around by gyrating wildly with your hips. Clockwise for forwards and Counterclockwise for backwards. Changing directions is done by physically turning.
Overall you'll kinda have the effect of a drunk who thinks he has a hula hoop.
you can use the Voice Recognition to tell it to move!
Easy. Put a foot forward to walk, a foot backward to walk backwards, and head tracking to turn.
Or, record your current position, and use a DDR type directional control, standing on the forward "arrow" to move forward, etc.
Or, hold the 360 controller in one hand for movement.
There are options. Some will work better than other.
Flit, none of those methods feel natural >_< Contradictory to Natal's goal to make game-playing feel more natural.
Even full VR simulators rarely have "walk to move" functionality, because it's hard to control. Usability still reigns supreme here, and if immersion is lost due to lack of control, it doesn't matter how "realistic" your movements are.
natal isn't the holodeck.
I could see games where stomping your feet would work, like say a Survivor horror game, where the speed at which you run from enemies is dependant on how fast you run in place, but for FPS or other similar navigation games, walking in place just would seem cumbersome and unecessary for either simulation or control.
Maybe Microsoft will show off an omnidirectional treadmill at next years E3.
It's all about the games. Nintendo has had quite a few duds, but they've also had some quality games that use the motion control, particularly those from a first person perspective (Metroid Prime, Resident Evil) along with their enjoyable first party games (Mario, Zelda, etc). As an owner of a Wii and an X-Box (and an HD TV), I'm intrigued and hopeful for Natal, but until I see developers using it to create quality games, it's all up in the air. Motion control on the Wii is built in, and MotionPlus is a $20 add-on, which keeps developers motivated to use it. If Natal and Sony's wand cost a bit of extra money, there may not be enough units to motivate developers to build for them, which in turn keeps gamers from buying them. It's the chicken and the egg problem, and so far Nintendo has been the only one to break the cycle by including motion sensing as a core element to the system.
sony and microsoft are way too late to the game. their efforts will be mostly ignored by the general public. very few people will want to spend money on something they most likely already own in a wii and which they played for two weeks but then got bored with for lack of a large library of good games. if these technologies had been bundled with the hardware then maybe their would be a fighting chance for this technology but as of now I think it's too little too late for motion tech for sony and microsoft
"sony and microsoft are way too late to the game. their efforts will be mostly ignored by the general public. very few people will want to spend money on something they most likely already own in a wii and which they played for two weeks but then got bored with for lack of a large library of good games."
So let me get this straight:
We have 3 video game companies. Only one does motion sensing as the main part of their system. The other 2 offering it as a add-on enhancement to their systems is " too late to the game"? To what game? The tech we are dealing with here hasn't been on the market for long enough to be even out of the first generation, let alone mature enough where the other companies shouldn't offer their own spin on it.
It's almost like saying that since company A had games on CDs first, Company B and C should stick with cartridges because it's "too late". Again, whatever that means.
Ok, and #2 you then say people are going to ignore it. Why? All "people" dont own a Wii. All people dont want to own a Wii. Has everyone that wants a video game system, bought one?
And what's even more bizarre is that you then go on to say that people got bored with the Wii after 2 weeks anyway. That tells you that their is plenty of room for some new players in theis field of gaming to offer something new.
" if these technologies had been bundled with the hardware then maybe their would be a fighting chance for this technology but as of now I think it's too little too late for motion tech for sony and microsoft"
Um, why?
The techknowledgly is new. How the hell is anyone
I think you fail to see that Natal goes way beyond gaming only. Would people really get bored of having whatever they are watching auto-pause when they leave the room to get a drink? Will they get bored of being able to control their media without having to fumble around for a remote control in a dark room? While people have become bored with Nintendo's gimmicky controls, that is because that's all their motion controls are used for.. inaccurate motion tracking for games that quickly lose their novelty.
You're right, how could anyone ever get bored of perfect 1:1 gimmicks?
The problem with PN and Sony's motion controller is that they are addons.
Developers don't have a huge install base like the wii does.
Maybe they'll bundle it with the newer units? Like DualShock 3? Hopefully. If it gets popular.
I actually view that as an advantage for Sony and MS, as their systems have normal wireless controllers as their default which work well for most normal games.
Whereas the Wii only has motion control, which frankly doesn't work all that well for many types of games. And Nintendo has yet to release a classic controller that can be used without being awkwardly wired into the Wiimote or the Wii itself.
But if you want to release a game that requires motion control and not just some "Do this motion to press x" type control system
requiring your customers to buy expensive addons is not fun. Sure Guitar Hero can get away with it but I don't think "Shooter Game for the xbox number 10023" will.
"And Nintendo has yet to release a classic controller that can be used without being awkwardly wired into the Wiimote or the Wii itself."
Umm, Wavebird?
The Wand>Natal.
The Wand + Project Natal ?
I have all 3 consoles. The new control option im interested in is the Natal. That just looks great,,,, if it works, So far every review says it works. So bring it on.
I really cannot see Sony's device really amounting to something. Natal has so much more potential and is much more revolutionary in terms of what the player can do, clearly drawing to the crowd that doesn't play too many games. Sony's device just seems to be a more accurate and more feature-full version of the Wiimote, and chances are it will turn out to be as gimmicky as the Sixaxis business. Don't get me wrong, Sony's demonstration was pretty cool, but I feel as though it cannot be used in as many intuitive ways was Natal can.
*as not was, sorry
Also, I think it is important to note that the Xbox 360 has been adopted by many as more of a family entertainment machine, and probably has been bought by kids more than the PS3. Since this motion control is especially interesting to the younger crowd, I think Natal will end up dominating.
Wait a minute. This article is just a flamewar starter!
Not really, everyone here has given up on Nintendo, and most people enjoy playing both PS3 and 360.
Worst we end up with is the 1 Nintendo fan getting a little mad.
You PS360 fanboi!!!1
It may be my limited brain capacity and my hate for Microsoft....but I think Natal is a stupid name and looks very gimmicky.
Sure some party game will come out that may be fun....but Hardcore precision triggering still needs buttons. This causal fad will not replace a hardcore gaming experience. My tiny brain see's a Sony like periphial that will come with Natal during some iteration...could be X720. But what we have seen alone is not the answer.
I guess it IS your hatred for Microsoft. At least you didn't say M$, so there's that.
Anyways, there is NO reason you can't use the original controller in conjunction with Natal (agreed the name is kinda janky but it IS the project name and probably NOT the shipping name).
With one hand, you can hit the 4 buttons, the trigger, shoulder button and the right thumbstick and because of the design of the controller, still have a pretty good grip on it. I'd say try it, but you probably don't have a 360 since you hate them so much.
Natal is FAR better than the wii and ps3 wand technology-wise. However, sales wise it will tank (so will the wand)... The 360's install base is 80% hardcore gamers, and no one will use this to replace the controller for games like halo, or cod, or gow...
The wand will tank just because its an inferior technology compared to both the wii and natal
Have you used a wiimote? Have you seen the demos of the wand? The wand has much better tracking by far.
Also, Wii's success is due to it's control scheme? Uhhh.. I thought it was it's price as compared to the other two consoles, especially at launch. When your console is 100 bucks cheaper than the next console and more like 150+ cheaper than the third console, you're going to get a lot more of the market, period.
I think you are dead wrong about the 360 having an install base of "80% hard-core gamers". Those 30 million units do not include 20 million hard-core users. In fact I would argue it's closer to the other way around. It's not 80% but I would bet at least 50% are what we would consider casual users (probably more). Out of the 20 or so people I know with 360's there are maybe 4 or 5 who play games a lot. The others just play rock band and those types of games....far from hard-core.
This article was sent to Engadget a few days ago comparing the 2 technologies.
http://digg.com/d1sx8Z
It also has some tech demos of Natal that I haven't seen anywhere else, amazing stuff!
The PS3 doesn't lack motion control per se; its just very poorly implemented. Warhawk is still fun though.
If a game requires an action like running it's going to cause a lot hell for urbanites and their downstairs neighbors. But I'm excited to see how Natal plays out.
To be fair, the wand is not without its own advantages. For one, the trigger buttons feel more natural, as Sony has explained beforehand. And the wand has a one to one tracking ratio; this is perfect for most games that has the characters use some type of weapon.
An eye toy needed for other tracking movements is a bit fail since it requires you to buy another confusing item.
Project Natal, though, I'm more excited about as well. They most likely will add on a one-handed controller, similar to the wand --
OMG THEY SHOULD COMBINE THE WAND AND PROJECT NATAL!
I watched the Nintendo, Sony and MS ful conferences and it was like watching pitches to primary school, middle school and high schoolers respectivly. (I'm a pc player so i rate pc games as aimed at college age mentality/maturity level.
Microsofts presentation was by far the most dynamic but let me say this, even as a fellow brit (who met peter Molyneux in 1989 at a game demo of 'powermonger'), Peter Molyneuxs presentation of Natal was the biggest load of bull i have ever seen.
Anyone with a rudimentary grasp of the current state of tech will know that voice recogition which is still very ropey is hard enough but understanding grammar too. No chance. There is no way ai can grasp what people are talking about in a subtle enough way to have a natural conversation.
Sure the natal could recognise basic emotions on the face and take simple voice commands as the trs game 'endwar' does but what we saw in that video was at least ten years away. Don't get me wrong, that kind of beautiful and emotional interaction is coming. Just not soon and certainly not in the life span of the 360.
Having but that bull to rest. I still think the Natal system could be awesome. i'd still rather swish my thumb a little click to the left on a controller rather than wave my whole arem about to shift to the next page/blad/file. When they get past the gimick uses for the Natal they will get more subtle then it will be quite something.
Joystiq's Chris Grant had a chance to chat with Milo first hand and according to him it's real and it's mind blowing. He witnessed the demo with three other game journalist and was amazed at Milo's interaction with them.
"Up next was Victor Lucas, host of The Electric Playground, who was asked to form a bond with Milo by walking up to him while he was on the swing and simply stating his name. "Victor," he said. He then walked back (to ostensibly reset the scenario) and, upon walking back up and being facially scanned, was greeted by Milo. "Hello Victor," Milo said, in his own voice. No stutter. No audible edit in the welcome. That's impressive!"
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/02/taking-a-walk-with-milo-molyneuxs-project-natal-game/
So yes while I agree Molyneux usually spews horse shit, Natal might actually be the real deal.
Even MS loving site Kotaku said
"A test version of Project Natal was set-up, including a camera over a TV and some other sensors."
"The Milo demo was partially being manipulated by a developer who was sitting nearby...."
I'll believe this stuff when it's out.
I honestly think sony is in the best position. The reason why is because of the HUGE support the playstation already has from PSN games, which are typically simple, fun, and cheap games. I can see these types of games offering good support for the new motion controls, especially seeing as games like fl0w or fl0wer are really the only games that successfully implement the current motion controls. Additionally, while Natal is quite impressive, there are too many limits of not having buttons, and while yes, you could hold a regular controller and use natal, it defeats the purpose. I saw that people said Burnout worked really well with the natal controls, but being a huge racing game fan, I can't see playing without physically holding a controller, because you need precision. Natal seems like it's set up to be a wii plus, a gimmicky game control that everyone will buy and play for a few days and then quickly loose interest
"because of the HUGE support the playstation already has from PSN games"
Unlike Xbox or Wii, whose XBLA and Virtual Console are LANGUISHING in oblivion, untouched by humans because of the evil that lurks there...
"and while yes, you could hold a regular controller and use natal, it defeats the purpose."
So, does the wand defeat the purpose of sony's control? I'm confused on how a controller+Natal would defeat the purpose, considering that Sony's solution is Eyetoy+controller.
"Natal seems like it's set up to be a wii plus, a gimmicky game control that everyone will buy and play for a few days and then quickly loose interest"
Ah, unlike sony's solution? I don't understand how sony escaped your ire, since all three have very similar results, if they all work as advertised. Here's a hint: 99% of motion controls are used for gimmicks. For every Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii, there have been hundreds of "waggle to press A" games to match.
I don't think this fact will change just because the system the game is on is now more powerful, but who knows.
@flit
"and while yes, you could hold a regular controller and use natal, it defeats the purpose."
So, does the wand defeat the purpose of sony's control? I'm confused on how a controller+Natal would defeat the purpose, considering that Sony's solution is Eyetoy+controller.
Yes it DOES defeat the purpose of Natal. Many people seem to overlook this when comparing Natal to the PS3 Motion Controller. "Just use a controller with Natal.....you can just use a different accessory in addition to Natal.....etc"
You have to realize that the whole marketing plan behind Natal is "YOU are the controller". Their entire idea was to forgo any controllers so that YOU are the controller. Adding in accessories, peripherals, or an actual controller would make their entire planned implementation of Natal useless.
I agree that Natal is technologically better than the PS3 Motion Controller, but game application wise, PS3 is way ahead of the game. Microsoft screwed themselves by saying that "YOU are the controller." If they ever came out with a first party accessory add-on for Natal it would be MS admitting they have to backtrack and add in something that would make Natal more usable.
Personally I think Natal should have been developed as just a computer interface device like a table-less surface technology (or I guess Minority Report) style. It's just not practical for games.
The biggest problem I've found with camera based tracking (having both the original EyeToy and 2nd generation) is lighting. The stage demonstrating Natal is well lit, I cannot say the same for most living rooms. This is why I never use my EyeToy. My hope is that the lighting on the wands make up for this problem to a degree.
According to Gizmodo, Natal never once hiccuped during their demo and lights were being flicked on and off.
Perhaps Sony will bundle their new wand thingy with a new updated camera as well.
You don't actually read articles before you comment, do you? It has a IR camera which is were the advantage over Eyetoy is and it can see in dim lighting. READ THE ARTICLE BEFORE COMMENTING!
@Naeem
Cool, that's what I was wondering.
@vor
IR cameras do not produce IR light, they only capture what is already in the room. Dark room = no IR light got it? LEARN TO READ BEFORE COMMENTING!
@vor
As mentioned above, the IR camera cannot see in dim conditions unless an IR light source is emitted into the room to illuminate it. What you are thinking of is thermal vision and Natal doesn't do that!
To think Any motion controls will replace the accuracy of controllers is silly. It's sorta like thinking that RTS's are easy to control with a Console Controller. Different input devices for different types of games will work better.
Completely agree. *Complete* motion control will never replace hardware control mainly due to the fact that people cannot remain completely still. If relying solely on motion control, how does the computer differentiate normal human unsteadiness from minor gestures when you want? If you notice on the Sony wand demo when he was trying to line up his bow and arrow shot, he had a really hard time getting an accurate and steady shot because our arms just move around too much in space. These motion controls should be used as another tool for immersion rather than trying to *replace* tried and true controllers.
That said, there are certain actions where motion control can really replace current control standards that really only exist because there was not a better technology available at the time.
Nintendo's solution is now. That is their main advantage. They have time to see what happens with the other guys. They have already discussed using similar technology to both Natal the the Eye (is that what it is called?) in R&D, and I am sure they have other plans as well. Realistically, Sony and MS are bring out these devices too far into the life cycles of their products and they will really take like on the next gen of consoles. At that point, Nintendo can make their next move...
which I doubt will have anything to do with blood pressure, but who knows. :-P
I find it all pretty cool, but for Natal, I would certainly want a Wiimote in my hand to detect subtle wrist action in addition to the motion capture. MS can release a controller like it, presuming that the cost of both the Natal and motion controller isn't too over the top.
Yeah, when I heard of Natal, my first thought was: "How will it know if I'm pulling a trigger in a shooting game?"
With the controller that ships with every console. Duh.